New engine -- SP 14

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Bruno Ogorelec
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Post by Bruno Ogorelec »

Viv wrote:Hey Bruno that looks a lot like the old TriCone engine? you been at the archives again old buddy:-)
Viv, thanks for remembering my works so far back. I am touched.

No, it's nothing like TriCone. Compare the two and you'll see. The principle of operation is completely different. Tricone is a Reynst skewered by a tube. SP-14 is inside-out Ecrevisse.

The only thing they have in common is the annular shape and central air duct. Those are among my favorites and feature on a number of engine concepts I have drawn.
resosys
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Post by resosys »

Viv wrote:To make a toroid use a slitting saw to cut up a 180 mandrel formed bend length ways then weld the two halves together at the ends.
Viv,

A great idea and one I've pondered several times. I'll have a go at it one of these days to see if the exhaust bends I have access to are anywhere near symetrical. They don't look to be very well made.

Any recommended online sources for good 180s?

Chris
Viv
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Post by Viv »

resosys wrote:
Viv wrote:To make a toroid use a slitting saw to cut up a 180 mandrel formed bend length ways then weld the two halves together at the ends.
Viv,

A great idea and one I've pondered several times. I'll have a go at it one of these days to see if the exhaust bends I have access to are anywhere near symetrical. They don't look to be very well made.

Any recommended online sources for good 180s?

Chris
Well we got one over here in the UK from an online 4x4 car specialist, in stainless steel 304 grade no less!

It did look pretty symetrical and we were looking at it with this sort of thing in mind.

To find them I just did a google search on a 180 degre stainless steel bend and it poped up on the first go:-)

It just seem such a nice way to make a toroid, it came up on the old forum way back in the first pages.

Viv
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Bruno Ogorelec
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Post by Bruno Ogorelec »

Viv wrote:It just seem such a nice way to make a toroid, it came up on the old forum way back in the first pages.
To give credit where credit's due, it was proposed by Mike Kunz. I posted his idea in the forum. He also pointed out that if you can't get 180-degree bends, use twice as many 90-degree ones. The latter are usually cheaper, as it is oftem much simpler to make a 90-degree bend than a 180-degree one. Many bending devices can't make a 180-degree bend.

Mike Kunz is a great guy, a high-school chemistry professor with great knowledge and great spirit.

He is building custom precision shooting rifles for competition purposes, as far as I know. Not much time for the forum. He taught me a great deal, way back.

I'm really sorry he's not active in the forum anymore.
resosys
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Post by resosys »

Well we got one over here in the UK from an online 4x4 car specialist, in stainless steel 304 grade no less!

It did look pretty symetrical and we were looking at it with this sort of thing in mind.
We got our steel from the local auto performance shop. I'll check with the 4x4 folks and other performance shops tomorrow.

These will work well for my tesla coil application but we may have trouble finding the ideal sizes to fit into Bruno's engine design. Getting the vacuum forming, metal spinning, or hydro forming setups going is going to be in order pretty soon it seems.

Chris
cudabean
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Post by cudabean »

Insideout? How about calling it an anular lockwood? One feature I particularly like about it is it seems to have a built in thrust augmentor that admits fresh air and heats it up, then mixes with the exhaust. This would probably help keep the noise down some because all of your high velocity hot gases are mixed with cooler and slower air.

cudabean
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Post by Bruno Ogorelec »

cudabean wrote:Insideout? How about calling it an anular lockwood? One feature I particularly like about it is it seems to have a built in thrust augmentor that admits fresh air and heats it up, then mixes with the exhaust. This would probably help keep the noise down some because all of your high velocity hot gases are mixed with cooler and slower air.
Well, it is more like Ecrevisse than Lockwood. And, it is really inside out, with the fresh air in the center and the combustion chamber around it.

But, that's description. I call it SP-14. SP is for Singing Pig. 14 because it is the fourteenth engine concept I have conceived (that I still remember).

Yes, I like the internal augmenters very much and do believe that they might cut the noise to some extent, as the exhaust speed will be lower. The gas speed is usually the biggest factor in noise generation in jet engines.

To me it looks like it simply must work, but we'll see.

Hope to come up with dimensions tomorrow.
Bruno Ogorelec
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Post by Bruno Ogorelec »

resosys wrote:we may have trouble finding the ideal sizes to fit into Bruno's engine design. Getting the vacuum forming, metal spinning, or hydro forming setups going is going to be in order pretty soon it seems.
Maybe we should find readily available steel tube sizes and then work around those.
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New motor

Post by Graham C. Williams »

Very Nice Bruno.
Perhaps consider two things.
1) The cooling of the internal surfaces and struts. Past work featured on this site has shown that these may melt. Perhaps run the fuel through them or add some air holes.
2) At the point where the induction pipe becomes the combustion chamber the design might benefit from a greater discontinuity in the lines.
Dimensions. Only my first thought on dimensions this but consider it as a crossection of a 'Lockwood type' motor, displaced some distance from the centreline, then integrate through 2pi about that centreline. All the area and dia. ratios would have to be the same at each station - Would that work?
Graham.
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Another option?

Post by Graham C. Williams »

Dear Bruno.
Did you try this idea with the Sanders-Roe valveless? The induction would then be on the outside and the exhaust would blast into the central air passage. This central air passage could then be arranged as a diffuser; with a half angle of about 4 to 7 degrees this should increase the pressure and lower the cold gas velocity near the exhaust. Perhaps this might increase the forward velocity over which reverse flow takes place?
Reverse flow from the induction could then be treated as if flowing over a plug nozzle or aerospike, a simple cone with a 30 degree half angle and extension tail.
I'm not sure about the induction arrangement.
Plug nozzle - I can see that this design would suffer from the same problems of cooling.
Internally I'd see a cut-off to the front of the internal plug and some sort of small plate mounted on the inside of the nacelle surface to increase the turbulence of the incoming air

Graham.
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3d View and dimensions......

Post by tasdevil »

I'm having trouble visualising this in 3d...could someone perhaps post another view, maybe with dimensions? I have a few ideas on how i may get this built easily and quickly and I'd be more than happy to give it a try as i have space to play with to experiment.

Dimensions would be good too....as would some idea of where to squirt in the fuel.

Cliff.
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Post by Bruno Ogorelec »

Cliff, I will try to give the proposed dimensions a.s.a.p. -- hopefully today.
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Post by Viv »

For a quick test of the dimensions and to isolate one of the varibles why not lay it out flat?

one sheet forms the outer part, so a flat sheet with a simple radiused fold to form the combustion chamber/inlet/exhaust.

Then the second sheet folded over then seem welded along the bottom edge to form he inner seperator.

It just needs a few supports to keep the two parts of the engine in the correct relation to each other.

So you end up with a wide flat Lockwood and when you have it running it just needs rolling up:-)

We have a Triangle Lockwood now we can have a Rectangular Lockwood:-)

Viv
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Post by Bruno Ogorelec »

Good points, Graham. Thank you. In fact, thank you all, guys. Let’s keep this discussion open. Even if this engine does not get built and does not wake up the entire Oxfordshire with a start sometime this year, to mark the start of the Fire and Noise World Conference, it may provide an entertaining and possibly useful exchange of opinion and knowledge.

Judging by the first reactions, people like the basic idea of SP-14, and I can now offer it with somewhat greater confidence as public property. I claim no rights to this concept other than the right to call the initial configuration published here ‘my idea’. Let the rest be the property of people in this forum, if they indeed decide to take it up. I will be very proud indeed if it happens.
Graham C. Williams wrote:Perhaps consider two things. 1) The cooling of the internal surfaces and struts. Past work featured on this site has shown that these may melt. Perhaps run the fuel through them or add some air holes.
I would normally try to use the internal annular cavity (the one that resembles the annular wing) for some purpose. Instinct tells me I should use it as a vaporization chamber for propane, which should – I guess -- be the fuel of choice during the prototype development. Vaporization and subsequent heating of propane should serve to cool the walls well enough. What I need is a trick that would let the vaporized (high-pressure) propane stream into the inlet annulus during the intake phase but not during the expansion phase. I may have a trick or two up my sleeve. We’ll see.

The internal brackets may be a tougher proposition. Given that they are likely to be small, perhaps they could be fabricated out of inconel. Perhaps a small sheet of inconel won’t be terribly expensive. Scrap sheet-inconel parts may also be available.

If that proves impractical, I intend to turn to my old trick of making one of the tubes fluted instead of cylindrical. Consider two concentric tubes. Look at their cross-section. If you make either the outer or the inner one longitudinally fluted, so that its cross-section resembles a petalled flower (or a Dynajet valve stamping) you can have one of the tubes cling to the other at the projecting points. The inner and the outer tube can thus be connected without discrete brackets.

By playing around with the exact design, you can achieve a preservation of the original section areas, too. Of course, you end up having a greater surface-to-volume ratio, but if one of the tubes carries cool air for augmentation purposes, it need not be a bad thing. The configuration may also help augmentation by offering superior mixing of hot gas with cool air. It will also lower the noise level.
Graham C. Williams wrote:2) At the point where the induction pipe becomes the combustion chamber the design might benefit from a greater discontinuity in the lines.
Graham, the diagram is not to scale. Also, circular sections easily deceive the eye. The farther out on the radius, the greater the deception. Remember that the annular intake passage curves outwards into the combustion zone from the position already far out from the engine centerline. That means that the small-looking inner radius of the transition from intake to the combustion zone actually represents a considerable rate of increase in cross-sectional area. If you drew an equivalent tubular Lockwood, you would get a very sharp transition indeed – certainly sharp enough for flow to detach from the wall.

This will be helped by the tendency of the flow to cling to the inner wall, whose slope is almost imperceptible and may actually be eliminated completely. I am counting on the inner wall ‘guiding’ most of the flow towards the curving ‘bottom’ of the combustion zone, which will force it outwards, acting as a centrifugal diffuser.

The inflow will (I hope) curve rather sharply into a tight annular vortex while its dynamic pressure will rise. This vortex will spin away from the intake and towards the exhaust. Wave reflections off the exhaust end will act to slow this rotation down, I guess, but I hope they will not stop it completely. Even if they do, however, the energy of rotation will translate into a pressure increase, so that any loss there should be minimal.

My worry is that the initial vortices – those formed in the intake tract as the intake air crosses the intake lip and enters the tract – will necessarily be in the opposite direction. I have no idea how to resolve this at the moment. Maybe the overall result will just be a lot of turbulence, rather than a distinct torus.
Graham C. Williams wrote:Dimensions. Only my first thought on dimensions this but consider it as a crossection of a 'Lockwood type' motor, displaced some distance from the centreline, then integrate through 2pi about that centreline. All the area and dia. ratios would have to be the same at each station - Would that work?
If I understand you properly, that is exactly what I plan to do. I will use the dimensional relations given by Kentfield for one of his Lockwood-style combustors – either the one on which he performed experiments with liquid fuel injection ort the one on which he tested the noise pattern. However, perhaps the Ecrevisse dimensions also deserve attention.

The starting point for all calculations will be the area of the intake tube mouth of the regular tubular Lockwood. From that, I can calculate the optimum area and diameter of the fitting augmenter. This will be the dimension for the inside tube (central duct) of SP-14.

It is also the outer (larger) wall of the annular intake tract. Deducting the intake section from the central duct section will give me the section (and then diameter) of the air intake into the central duct.

This diameter is also the inner diameter of the annular combustion zone etc. etc.

I am really interested in the behavior of the curious inner augmenter. Namely, I have never seen any studies of reverse ejectors – where the ingress of the driving fluid is annular while the driven fluid is in a cylindrical central flow.
Graham C. Williams wrote:Did you try this idea with the Sanders-Roe valveless? The induction would then be on the outside and the exhaust would blast into the central air passage. This central air passage could then be arranged as a diffuser; with a half angle of about 4 to 7 degrees this should increase the pressure and lower the cold gas velocity near the exhaust. Perhaps this might increase the forward velocity over which reverse flow takes place?
An interesting idea. I will consider it. However, when I turn the Saunders-Roe inside out, I do not get the same configuration as you do, judging by your next words about reverse flow: “Reverse flow from the induction could then be treated as if flowing over a plug nozzle or aerospike, a simple cone with a 30 degree half angle and extension tail.â€
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Post by George »

Hi bruno,

I like the idea and your design, it's great !

Maybe the inlet have to be placed in a slowest air speed flow, maybe it would increase the filling of the combustion chamber ?
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