Gluhareff 130R power failure issue still open ... Any Idear?

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patrick35
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pics of friday

Post by patrick35 » Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:29 am

hi all .

finaly there is some pics of the friday test .

PATRICK .
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Paul Thonnard
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Post by Paul Thonnard » Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:18 am

Hi Luc,

One more thing -

Which plans did you create your intake from -Gluhareff's original or Riley's?

Riley's plans specify that 1st stage is 1.5 inches in dia while Gene's blueprint measures 1.625. Although a 15% reduction in area may seem trivial to some, the placement of 1st stage can make this a resonance detractor at high throttle. The higher the mismatch in speed between the exhaust of 1st stage and the intake of 2nd stage, the more distortion in the needed wave reflection at the top of stage 2.

I personally would go with Gene's specs as he was the one making the claim of 130 lbs.

cheers,
Paul

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Post by Mike Everman » Mon Mar 01, 2004 1:43 am

Or whip up an 8" Lockwood. HaHaHaHa! ;-P
Mike
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Viv
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Post by Viv » Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:19 am

Paul Thonnard wrote:Hi Luc,

One more thing -

Which plans did you create your intake from -Gluhareff's original or Riley's?

Riley's plans specify that 1st stage is 1.5 inches in dia while Gene's blueprint measures 1.625. Although a 15% reduction in area may seem trivial to some, the placement of 1st stage can make this a resonance detractor at high throttle. The higher the mismatch in speed between the exhaust of 1st stage and the intake of 2nd stage, the more distortion in the needed wave reflection at the top of stage 2.

I personally would go with Gene's specs as he was the one making the claim of 130 lbs.

cheers,
Paul
Merde!! thanks Paul, do you have any other little bombshells like that one?

That came as a bit of a surprise as i thought the plans were identicle, do you know of any other differances? if so do tell as any hting is important.

At the moment and from my first runs on the recordings that Luc and Dave made last Friday it looks like the whole inlet tract is out of tune.

Each of the expected harmonics does not line up with the actuel harmonics in the recording.

Not a by a lot but enough I think to knock it out of kilter, the first stack element is very deffinetly at the wrong frequency as far as I can tell and thats the really important one for sonic lock to occure.

I will know more as I get more time to do it today, I also need to get Graham to second guess me to make sure I am not making any mistakes.

Viv
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

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Monsieur le commentaire

Dave
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Recroding trip follow up, Part 1:

Post by Dave » Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:16 pm

OK guys a quick summary before I go to work:

FIRST IMPRESSIONS: Yes, I have read all the information about how loud they are, etc…, but noting can truly prepare you for the real thing. Standing next to one of these things is more like an assault on your senses than a listening experience. You not only hear it, you feel it! If this is what one sounds like when it is not running up to its full potential, I can only imagine what it will be like when perfectly tuned and running at full thrust.

As good as touching and hearing were, nothing compares to having your hands on the controls. Luc was good enough to let me try out his baby. I did two runs. The first run was with supervision to get a feel for the starting procedures, controls, load cell readings, etc... On the second run Luc said now you are on your own and walked away. Luc will have to give you the fuel consumption and thrust numbers. All I can tell you is that I had a smile glued to my face for a long time after…

QUICK THANK YOUS:
Luc was kind enough to put me up at his house for a couple of days. He and his significant others fed me, made me feel at home and treated me like family. What more could anyone ask for. I even learned a few words of French as a bonus.

Patrick is one of those quiet confident guys that surprises you. He did enough research on his own to find a program for wave form analysis that was better than the one I brought with me for the recording session.

Viv, Graham, Raymond and others provided valuable input on setup before the trip and will be analyzing the resulting sound files for some time to come.

THINGS TO COME:
LUC, I have found a picture and a short video clip of the 700 pound version. I will try to get that to you later this week. Especially after looking at these pictures I have some additional thoughts about the heat exchanger coils, etc…

VIV and Graham, I have been around sound reinforcement on and off for as long as I have been reading about pressure jets, please look for some kind of low frequency component in the recordings. I am not sure if it is sound, shock wave, or what, but there is something there that is lower in frequency than the tuned frequency of the engine…

ALL, I dug out my plans for a quick look. They are full sized copies of blueprints, are labeled EMG Engineering and are dated 1978. Most importantly, the 3rd stage / combustion chamber measurement differs from the measurement Luc reported in a prior post. My plans confirm the second stage as being 14.65 in length, but state that the 3rd stage / combustion stage are 14.55 inches, not 14.

Expect more questions and observations as I get more time to write.

CONFESSION: Although I have read about Pressure Jet and Pulse Jet engines on and off for the last 30 years I had never listened to one in person, touched one or operated one, until last Friday. Now that I have been baptized by fire, I will be back for more!

Dave
Last edited by Dave on Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Viv
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Post by Viv » Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:25 pm

I hate you! sounds like you had a good time mate:-)

The lowest frequency is 64hz at -45db so it is pretty low level the engine is at 138hz lowest to 156hz highest depending on the part of the run (temperature, hot engine lowest).

the first stage does not seem to match the expected frequency, it should (I think) match the frequency of the third stage section from the lip to the hole, please note the section not the hole third stage.

Viv
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Mike Everman
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Post by Mike Everman » Mon Mar 01, 2004 2:37 pm

fantastic, Dave! I am a regular to this thread, can't add much, but feel I'm watching the makings of a big success. Good luck, Luc. It feels like you're on the right track and will get there!
Mike
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Paul Thonnard
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Post by Paul Thonnard » Mon Mar 01, 2004 3:51 pm

Viv -

No other bombshells that I am aware of. From my small engine, I have found these engines to be quit sensitive.

Paul

luc
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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Mon Mar 01, 2004 3:53 pm

Hi guys,

This is a small rap-up of the friday recording cession. First of all, for the records, we have officialy burned 100 gallons of liquid propane. This add up to $181.00 just for fuel. Now, If I talk like a buiness man and I include the 3 test guys (us) involved, at our compagny hourly price rate, this add up to $1,750.00 for one day. This is without accounting Viv, Graham and Raymond time and Dave traveling time (18 hours total). So, if you think about it, all this is a pretty nice gif to the PulseJet and PressureJet community. Let make the best out of this ... he he he.

Now, for the 1 stage dimenssions issues ... Our engine has a first stage of 1.625" Dia. But the way I see this, it seems there is 2 set of drawings for the 130R. Could the personne who has the set different to the "Robert Q. Riley" set, send me a copy of that one. I would appreciate that.
Please send it to : skeet@securenet.net
FIRST IMPRESSIONS: Yes, I have read all the information about how loud they are, etc…, but noting can truly prepare you for the real thing. Standing next to one of these things is more like an assault on your senses than a listening experience. You not only hear it, you feel it! If this is what one sounds like when it is not running up to its full potential, I can only imagine what it will be like when perfectly tuned and running at full thrust.
HI HI HI ....
As good as touching and hearing were, nothing compares to having your hands on the controls. Luc was good enough to let me try out his baby. I did two runs. The first run was with supervision to get a feel for the starting procedures, controls, load cell readings, etc... On the second run Luc said now you are on your own and walked away. Luc will have to give you the fuel consumption and thrust numbers. All I can tell you is that I had a smile glued to my face for a long time after…
HE HE HE ... The rookie operator did very good, guys ... Your welcome Dave. Seeing your face was my pleasure.
THINGS TO COME:
LUC, I have found a picture and a short video clip of the 700 pound version. I will try to get that to you later this week. Especially after looking at these pictures I have some additional thoughts about the heat exchanger coils, etc…
I deffenitaly want that .....

Okey ... So now, we are waiting for the 2 soud brainiacs to give us a conclusion ... So, let see.

Bye the way, is there some one who has a copy of that "hyperPhysics" disk. If not, I will by one.

Another thing, last friday when we did our recording, at one point while the propane inlet pressure was at 200 psig. I took a temp. reading at the nozzle and saw 850 °F. ..... Hummmm ... Strange ... I will go investigate that today.

And Viv, I know that if your trying to calculate the 3rd stage and chamber accoustic, you will need to have the volume of the chamber, which can be hard to calculate accuratly. Don't blow-up your brain doing it and remember, I work with SolidWork, which calculate all 3D part volume easely ... Tell me if you need that.

Okey ... I am waiting for results or hopfully, solutions.

I will go investigate that temp. issue .... BRB.

Cya,

Luc

luc
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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:47 pm

Okey Guys,

Back from my investigation. I saw a damn strange thing. But remeber guys, even if you I give you what I found, this last inlet pressure increment is OFF Spec. The Gluey manual clearly says "130 pound of thrust at 165 psig.

My engine stages and chamber descriptions :

Stage #1 : 1.650" Int. Dia. by 8" long. Volume is 17 cu./inch.
Stage #2 : 3.475" Int. Dia. by 14.625 Long. Volume is 139 cu./inch.
Stage #3 : 4.25" Int. Dia. Inlet opening by aprx. 5 inch long.
Chamber and 3rd stage volume is 1387 cu./inch.

This morning's run :

Start up
Propane pressure : 25 psig. (Very low propane feeding)
Propane temp. : 11 °F
Chamber Temp. : 1100 °F
Nozzle temp. : 200 °F
Engine thrust : 0 pnds.

Warm-up
Propane pressure : 100 psig.
Propane temp. : 22 °F
Chamber Temp. : OL
Nozzle temp. : 1180 °F
Engine Thrust : 18 punds.

Full Power @ 165 psig.
Propane pressure : 165 psig.
Propane temp. : 48 °F
Chamber Temp. : OL
Nozzle temp. : 1029 °F
Engine Thrust : 38 punds.
Stage #1 temp. : 350 °F
Stage #2 temp. : 380 °F
Stage #3 temp. : 450 °F (4 inch below 3rd stage mouth opening)

Full Power @ 200 psig.
Propane pressure : 200 psig.
Propane temp. : 38 °F
Chamber Temp. : OL
Nozzle temp. : 850 °F
Engine Thrust : 57 punds.
Stage #1 temp. : 380 °F
Stage #2 temp. : 330 °F
Stage #3 temp. : 450 °F (4 inch below 3rd stage mouth opening)

Went back to 165 psig. and re-checked the Nozzle temp. and it was back to 1036 °F.

What this tells me, is that more pressure does not always mean more thrust. If you cool those coils to much and get closser to the 800 °F mark, the propane will want to get back liquid, then you loose power. Even if we and 10 pnds more of thrust, for 35 psig. more, it is not worth it.

Now, this afternoon, I will try the same test, but .060" dia. Orifice and see what it does.

Then, I will put back coils made of SST 321 by .020" thick and to the same runs ... I WILL FIND WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS BITCH... And destroy all the Mythologie about "You MUST use this and you must this...."

They only things I am asking here ...Is that you guys take all the numbers that I will provide and come to a conclusion to help me fix that engine and put light on that secrety.

Cya Guys ... And thanks for you standing by me.

Regards,

Luc

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Post by Raymond G » Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:29 pm

Hi All,
It's been a bit since my last post, so...

Luc, Dave and Patrick,
Thank you all so much for running these tests AND sharing your experiences. It is the cooporation that we see here that will do more for developing these fun little engines than any amount of competition, that keeps important info hidden from the community.

All,
I have not been able to do anything with the sound files and was hoping someone could recommend or send a free download to gagefam@stormnet.com so that I can look at the files. I would really like to look at those frequencies and run some calcs, especially with different sound velocities to determine sensitivity. Remember that sound velocity is dependant upon static temp, not stagnation temp, and so could account for a small deviation.

Again, everyone, gives yourselves a resounding pat on the back!

Regards,
Raymond

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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:56 pm

Hi Raymond,

Like mentionned above in Dave's previous posting, Patrick has found a nice program to do that. He is next to me now and sees your message so he will send you the program via Email. But the program is 12 megs big. So I recommend that you make sure you can get that file or post instruction how you want Patrick to transfer the file.

Also, I have completed 2 additional runs with different orifices. I will post the results into 2 seprate posting.

See the next postings

Regards,

Luc

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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Mon Mar 01, 2004 7:02 pm

Okey, here is the run using the .060" Dia. orifices.
Outside temp. 48 °F

Start up
Propane pressure : 50 psig.
Propane temp. : 42 °F
Chamber Temp. : 1100 °F
Nozzle temp. : 250 °F
Engine thrust : 0 pnds.

Warm-up
Propane pressure : 100 psig.
Propane temp. : 18 °F
Chamber Temp. : OL
Nozzle temp. : 1140 °F
Engine Thrust : 18 punds.

Full Power @ 165 psig.
Propane pressure : 165 psig.
Propane temp. : 50 °F
Chamber Temp. : OL
Nozzle temp. : 1100 °F
Engine Thrust : 55 punds.
Stage #1 temp. : 350 °F
Stage #2 temp. : 375 °F
Stage #3 temp. : 450 °F (4 inch below 3rd stage mouth opening)

Full Power @ 200 psig.
Propane pressure : 200 psig.
Propane temp. : 49 °F
Chamber Temp. : OL
Nozzle temp. : 985 °F
Engine Thrust : 51 pnds.
Stage #1 temp. : 460 °F
Stage #2 temp. : 340 °F
Stage #3 temp. : 396 °F (4 inch below 3rd stage mouth opening)

This for running with .060" Dia. orifices.

Luc

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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Mon Mar 01, 2004 7:09 pm

Okey, here is the run using the .100" Dia. orifices.
Outside temp. 48 °F

Start up
Propane pressure : 50 psig.
Propane temp. : 50 °F
Chamber Temp. : 1700 °F
Nozzle temp. : 1036 °F
Engine thrust : 0 pnds.
Note : The engine is still warm from previous run, but values come back to normal at higher power level.

Warm-up
Propane pressure : 100 psig.
Propane temp. : 39 °F
Chamber Temp. : OL
Nozzle temp. : 1226 °F
Engine Thrust : 17 pnds.

Full Power @ 165 psig.
Propane pressure : 165 psig.
Propane temp. : 42 °F
Chamber Temp. : OL
Nozzle temp. : 1050 °F
Engine Thrust : 48 punds.
Stage #1 temp. : 430 °F
Stage #2 temp. : 345 °F
Stage #3 temp. : 350 °F (4 inch below 3rd stage mouth opening)

Full Power @ 200 psig.
Propane pressure : 200 psig.
Propane temp. : 48 °F
Chamber Temp. : OL
Nozzle temp. : 1000 °F
Engine Thrust : 60 pnds.
Stage #1 temp. : 350 °F
Stage #2 temp. : 275 °F
Stage #3 temp. : 300 °F (4 inch below 3rd stage mouth opening)

This for running with .100" Dia. orifices.

Note : With .100" dia. orifices, the engine is unstable, hard to warm-up and we lost it twice @ 195 psig. before being able to reach 200 psig. and carry out the test.

See my conclusion below.

Luc

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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Mon Mar 01, 2004 7:16 pm

Okey Guys,

From the the 3 runs done and posted above, I come to the conclusion that "Yes" ambient temp. is a factor in the thrust results. "Yes" ... The orifice size is a factor too ... But not to the point that it will make the Gluhareff engine deliver what he is suppose to.

I beleive that from different size orifices you can gain or loose a few pounds of thrust. I also beleive the same thing about the ambient temp.

But from 130 pnds to no more then 60 pnds. This is more then 50% lost and I beleive what is still to achieve here, is proper fine tunning of the engine's accoustic. And doing so ... We must find a way to make peples see, understand and being able to adjust those wave and frequency, quite easely.

This is our goal I beleive and our challenge also ...

Here you have it guys ... All the data needed.

Regards

Luc

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