Gluhareff 130R power failure issue still open ... Any Idear?

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Viv
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Re: 130R Power Failure

Post by Viv » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:59 pm

Luc wrote:He he he,

Yes ... They, you, we all gonna probably have to wait. Guess what ... The new SST-321 tubes are not in yet and it is already 12:40 here.

Onnnnnnn ... Poor, Poor, Porr little Viv Dude. What a nasty weekend this next one will beee ... Onnnnnnnn.

Bye the way ... I am looking for "High Temp. Flex Hose" So I will use it to connect the nozzle to the hot gas tube and fix the nozzle permanently to the first stage. This way it will never move again, remain permanently ajusted and in place and we will be able to make telescopic second stage adjustments without always cutting are re-weldin the hot gas tube every time.

Do you guys know a supllier that can provide 2000 °F capable flex hoses?

Look around please...

Poor Viv ... What a weekend this will be ...

He he he,

Qapla,

Luc
You think its funny? I may be waiting for you in your office on Monday if you keep this up:-)

You were telling how good you all are in that factory! so why cant you get some wedges stuck in the coils of that heat exchanger and give it a test?

Literally all you need is a couple of wedges! cant you squize a strip of metal up the side of the coils next to the wall and wedge it that way?

Come on for gods sake!

People are waiting out here.

Viv:-)
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

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Dave
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Coil stabalizer

Post by Dave » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:03 pm

Luc / Patrick

I just looked at the new coil design:

1. Go for the flat bar for now as this should prove / disprove the concept. A self supporting clip design that does not clamp to the CC walls may prove less troublesome in the long run, but you can always change to that later.

2. Love the new side entrance. It not only makes for a more convenient hook up, it also appears to get us another partial turn on the coils. Both are good things from my point of view.

2. The transition piece to adapt the dual coils to the single nozzle feed line looks perfect.

Now on to the Mic stuff.

Dave

luc
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130R power Failure

Post by luc » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:34 pm

Heyyy Viv,

You will have to sit on it ... Ask your GF (Girl Friend) to keep you busy this weekend ... This way, you will put your mind OFF this engine ... He he he.

As for the SST-321 tubes, I was just informed by our purchasing department, that our supllier forget ... YES FORGOT ... To put the tubes on yesterday's transport ... So guess what, I will have them late today or tomorow.

Onnnnnnn .... Poor, Poor, Poor Vivvvvvvvvvv.

Look for that High temp. flex hose ... Instead.

Qapla,

Luc

Dave
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Recordig recommendations.

Post by Dave » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:51 pm

Luc

Here is the short version on the microphone, etc. The source is:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/
In the states they also have retail stores that go under the name of Guitar Center.

1 - Behringer Eurorack UB1002 Mixer @ $59.99

3 - Musician's Friend Lo-Z Microphone Cable - 20 Foot @ $ 7.99

1 - Behringer XM8500A Microphone @ $19.99

1 - On Stage Stands Tripod Mic Stand with Boom @ $19.99

1 - Hosa Stereo Y-Cable Mini Male - 2 QTR Mono Males - 10 Foot @ $ 5.99

1 - Behringer B-5 Condenser Microphone @ $79.99


The Behringer UB1002 Mixer is the little brother to the one we used while I was there to record. It is the smallest one I could find that supports Phantom power for a Condenser Microphone.

Three Mic Cables should be enough to get you from the test area back inside the paint shop. If not just add another one.

The Behringer XM8500A Mic is the same one we used last time. I put it on the list just as a reference and it makes a good backup mic. If you budget is tight it should at least get you recordings that are as good as we got before.

The Mic stand should look familiar as it is also the same one we used.

The Hosa Stereo Y-Cable is needed to get you from the Main Outputs on the mixer to the input of your computer. Alternatively, you could use a dual RCA to stereo 1/8th inch cable to get you from the Tape outputs to the PC Line Input. (I am assuming that you can use the software Patrick found for recording on a PC you already have.)

The Behringer B-5 Condenser Microphone is the one I ordered for our recording session, but did not arrive in time. Graham thought it would do the trick, just use the Omni-directional insert per his instructions. Remember, this is a condenser mic that requires 48Volt Phantom power from the Mixer. They also do not like high humidity, etc...

OK, that’s the short story. We can talk technique later, but just in case we do not get a chance, DON’T CLIP / PEAK the mic input, the mixer output or the input to the PC.

I will try to email you a wish list from the web site and feel free to give me a phone call if you want to talk live. If you have misplaced my home or cell phone number just let me know and I will send again. Got to go.

Dave

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Quick thought on flex for the fuel line

Post by Dave » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:57 pm

Guys
Just a quick thought on a flex point for the fuel line. It is not fancy, but how about a simple loop in the line. This would allow for some expansion / contraction but would create yet another source for heat loss. Just an idea.
Dave

Viv
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Re: Quick thought on flex for the fuel line

Post by Viv » Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:08 pm

Dave wrote:Guys
Just a quick thought on a flex point for the fuel line. It is not fancy, but how about a simple loop in the line. This would allow for some expansion / contraction but would create yet another source for heat loss. Just an idea.
Dave
Hey Dave I just suggested that to Luc on msn no more than five minutes ago:-)

Viv
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luc
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130R Power failure

Post by luc » Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:48 pm

Okey...

Dave ... Dave, You don't remeber don't you?

When you came here, I told you that once, we did put a loop (180° turn) between the nozzle and the hot gas tube. Do you remember what I told you about the thermal expansion?

Better then this ... I will ask you this question...To all of you :

Why did Engene went for two 90° sharp turn, instead of a 180° radius turn?

Anyway ... The answer to this question will make you realize that loops are not good (Even a 360° loop) and at 1000 to 1200 °F, any welding will break at the junction, if they are under twisting, torqing or bending stress.

Remember ... Loop will expand in all their radius direction.

Cya,

Luc

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Post by Raymond G » Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:52 pm

Luc,
Do I need the Solid Works Viewer plug-in to see the coils file? All I'm getting is gibberish when I try to open it. I'm downloading SWV now, but have a slow connection so will take awhile.

Viv, Luc,
Nice to see you guys tip your hand. Thanks. It helps me give some (hopefully) constructive input. Wedging the coil to kill harmonics may not be as easy as you think. IIRC, the manuals claim an air to fuel ratio of 14.3:1. Now we all know the manuals are mostly BS, but consider, with a 14.3:1 air-fuel in propane, I calc an embarrassingly high combustion chamber temp. Even with a higher air-fuel of say 20-30:1, combustion temps will still destroy anything metallic you put in there. The coils and the chamber walls don't melt because they both have massive amounts of cooling; the coils by the fuel flow, and the chamber by conduction, convection, and especially radiation to the surroundings. But something to hold the coils in place will just soak at whatever the actual combustion temp is and melt and/or burn instantly.
There are some furnace cements that you could probably pick up at he local hardware store Today (here that VIV and Dave! ;o) ) that are good to about 3000F and that might do it if the air-fuel is about 30:1 or higher. Above 3000F you will need to find something more exotic. Copper brackets MIGHT work if you can ensure very good contact between them and the coils so that the coil cooling would also cool the brackets.

Luc,
The embarrassingly high temps I calc could also pose a danger to your expensive new 4000F thermocouple! Proceed with caution!

Regards,
Raymond

P.S. Still downloading

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Post by Dave » Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:50 pm

Luc

Yup, I do remember our conversation on the subject. Unfortunately I made a few new assumptions as well:

1 - That you would securely mount the injection nozzle, first stage and second stage to the mounting strut so they would not move.

2 - That we would get enough flex out of a 360 degree expansion loop to allow for the heat expansion / deformation.

3 - That the stresses involved would not rip apart the welds or tubing.

Do you know what happens when we assume? If not, break down the word assume into 3 smaller words. EG: It makes an "***" out of "U" and "ME". Hey, I've been one before and will be again, and again, and ….

OK, so is there a magic answer to our little problem?

Dave

luc
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130R power Failure

Post by luc » Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:54 pm

Hi Raymond,

Thanks for the inputs.

As for the thermocouple ... Don't worry. I will check my back. Having you guys on my back this week was enough, I don't want my Boss on my back too.

As for the plate, I plan to put asbestos strips between coils and C/C walls only. This way, the coils will help cooling the flat bar. They will also be made of SST-316L or 321.

Cya,

Luc

luc
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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:05 pm

Heyyy .. Dave,

That okey Bud,

And yes I know the phrase ... he he he ... Assume make an *** ou of U and me ... he he he.

As for the question ... Gluey went for two 90 °F to keep the expansion in only 2 axis, Y for up and down and X for side. A loop cause the nozzle to go Y, X and radial rotation expansion, thus, changing the alignment of the nozzle shooting point in the chamber.

It will take a massive bracket to hold that nozzle aligned, and even a slite angle change at the nozzle can result in a few 1/8" at the bottom of the chamber, screwing the engine operation.

Told you...we tried it ...

Qapla

Luc

Viv
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Post by Viv » Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:27 pm

Raymond G wrote:Luc,
Do I need the Solid Works Viewer plug-in to see the coils file? All I'm getting is gibberish when I try to open it. I'm downloading SWV now, but have a slow connection so will take awhile.

Viv, Luc,
Nice to see you guys tip your hand. Thanks. It helps me give some (hopefully) constructive input. Wedging the coil to kill harmonics may not be as easy as you think. IIRC, the manuals claim an air to fuel ratio of 14.3:1. Now we all know the manuals are mostly BS, but consider, with a 14.3:1 air-fuel in propane, I calc an embarrassingly high combustion chamber temp. Even with a higher air-fuel of say 20-30:1, combustion temps will still destroy anything metallic you put in there. The coils and the chamber walls don't melt because they both have massive amounts of cooling; the coils by the fuel flow, and the chamber by conduction, convection, and especially radiation to the surroundings. But something to hold the coils in place will just soak at whatever the actual combustion temp is and melt and/or burn instantly.
There are some furnace cements that you could probably pick up at he local hardware store Today (here that VIV and Dave! ;o) ) that are good to about 3000F and that might do it if the air-fuel is about 30:1 or higher. Above 3000F you will need to find something more exotic. Copper brackets MIGHT work if you can ensure very good contact between them and the coils so that the coil cooling would also cool the brackets.

Luc,
The embarrassingly high temps I calc could also pose a danger to your expensive new 4000F thermocouple! Proceed with caution!

Regards,
Raymond

P.S. Still downloading
Wow so does this explain the wire leaving the engine in flaming molten droplets then:-)

I must admit I have been wondering about the mixture ratios and temperatures

Viv
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

Viv's blog

Monsieur le commentaire

luc
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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:53 pm

Remember guys,

If it only come to finding material that will sustain that temp. I am not worried at all.

There is SST-321, or the 400 series and if it is not suffiscent, there is something called ... INCONEL ... He he he.

Bye the way ... I have found some hoses, 1500 °F capable, high velocity gas iner core insert and pulsation free. I am waiting for the spec. sheets and prices.

Ta.. Ta...

Luc ....... Out

luc
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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:08 pm

Okey,

I got the recording stuff purchased ... Thanks Dave for you inputs.

Got the Mic (With condenser, equivalent to yours Dave)
The Mixer
The 50' cable
The Tripod
The mixer to PC cable.

But you can still come visit us anytime Dave ... Even If I have my own stuff now.

At least I got that ... Onnnnn ... Stilll no SST Tubes ........
Onnnnnnn .... Poor Vivvvvvvvv.

Ta ... Ta,

Luc ................Out

Mike Everman
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Post by Mike Everman » Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:24 pm

I found some ceramic putty at McMaster.com that you might use to tie the coils together... it's used to repair furnace bricks.
Mike
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