Gluhareff 130R power failure issue still open ... Any Idear?

Moderator: Mike Everman

Locked
Viv
Posts: 2158
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:35 pm
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Normandy, France, Wales, Europe
Contact:

Post by Viv » Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:35 am

This is from the 130R recording that Luc sent me last night, it may as well be a differant motor as it is quite differant.

F2 is much lower and F3 is higher these are tied in to the inlet tract so this approuch is all ready showing us whats what.

Viv
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

Viv's blog

Monsieur le commentaire

Dave
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2003 7:03 pm
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: Buffalo, NY

Plans, etc...

Post by Dave » Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:06 pm

Luc

The plans, a Technical Manual and a video will go out to you today. Details are as follows:

1. The plans are as previously described, 1978 EMG Engineering versions.

2. The Technical manual looks much like the one you already have, except that it has a somewhat poor picture of the 700 Pound Engine on page two.

3. If I left the tape in the right place, you will see a brief clip of the 700 pound engine shortly after starting it. If not start at the beginning of the tape and fast forward about 27 minutes. The clip will appear just after the demonstration of the 5 Pound Engine.

When viewing the 700 Pound Engine take special note of how large the Combustion Chamber is where the Heat Exchanger Coils are located.

Dave
Last edited by Dave on Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Dave
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2003 7:03 pm
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: Buffalo, NY

New Heat Exchanger

Post by Dave » Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:13 pm

Luc

The posting you did of the new Heat Exchanger coil is a beautiful thing. The solid works viewer really is nice.

One more suggestion I have is to make the new coil winder so that you can build coils with both 5 turns and 6 turns.

Adding a 6th turn to the coil will add 20% more area to the heat exchanger. This should allow you to run the engine with larger metering jets, or at higher pressures and / or with a nozzle that delivers more fuel mass at higher velocities.

Dave
PS: Will a 6 turn coil fit properly inside the Combustion Chamber? If not, would you have to reduce the space between the coils from the 0.30 inches specified to something more like 0.20 inches?

Dave
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2003 7:03 pm
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: Buffalo, NY

Difference in frequency distribution

Post by Dave » Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:48 pm

Viv
How much of the differences you see come from the fact that I was not using the best mic for the job and how much do you think are something else?
Dave

Viv
Posts: 2158
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:35 pm
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Normandy, France, Wales, Europe
Contact:

Re: New Heat Exchanger

Post by Viv » Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:03 pm

Dave wrote:Luc

The posting you did of the new Heat Exchanger coil is a beautiful thing. The solid works viewer really is nice.

One more suggestion I have is to make the new coil winder so that you can build coils with both 5 turns and 6 turns.

Adding a 6th turn to the coil will add 20% more area to the heat exchanger. This should allow you to run the engine with larger metering jets, or at higher pressures and / or with a nozzle that delivers more fuel mass at higher velocities.

Dave
PS: Will a 6 turn coil fit properly inside the Combustion Chamber? If not, would you have to reduce the space between the coils from the 0.30 inches specified to something more like 0.20 inches?
My vote is for more turns to allow longer for the heat transfer as the engine seems prone to drift due to low temperature propane.

This is of course based on anactdotel evedence from every one saying the coils are a problem, that seems to be from the lower heat conductance of the thicker/ and or differant materiel grades of stainless.

The resonance of the inlet tract is very directly related to the temperature in the inlet tract and that is down to the propane temperature and the ambient air temperature.

Eugenes own patent mentions this fact, so the more turns the merryer.

Viv
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

Viv's blog

Monsieur le commentaire

Viv
Posts: 2158
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:35 pm
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Normandy, France, Wales, Europe
Contact:

Re: Difference in frequency distribution

Post by Viv » Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:08 pm

Dave wrote:Viv
How much of the differences you see come from the fact that I was not using the best mic for the job and how much do you think are something else?
Dave
Dave your recording is as good as it gets with that mike so dont worry:-) the recording of Eugenes engine on the other hand does leave a lot to be disired!

The Spectrum from Eugenes engine should be taken as an indication of whats going on only rather than fact:-)

But it is an indication of what the harmonics should be and they are quite differant too Lucs motor.

Viv
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

Viv's blog

Monsieur le commentaire

luc
Posts: 768
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:05 pm
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Quebec, Canada

130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:35 pm

Greetings guys,

Viv asked
Ok I have to ask the stupid question, why were the coils not done this way to begin with?

It works for me and I have to say I could never find a reason for the original layout.
Simple Viv, to do what we are about to do with the new Dave coils configuration, requires that you machine a Jig, using specific pitch and diameter (Which is easely determined by SolidWorks), a good late that will machine that Jig and after that, you need to spin thos coils together.

Also remember, I also said that I will anneal the coils after production. Each coils will be longer compare to the original design, so they will have a tendency to warp and twist inside the chamber. When I will anneal them, they will braced, strongly attached and coiled over a steel tube to prevent them from moving, thus, keeping their original shape.

So ... If you take everything into account (i.e : Software, Late and oven) and also Patrick, which is a big factor here, you don't find this into everyday shop or backyard shop, and this engine comes from a back shop. Gluey's one. I beleave he did not have the facilities, or simply not ... Dave idear. Like it took us a while to think about using the old Gluey recording tracks ... Sometime, we simply don't think of it.

Viv says
F2 is much lower and F3 is higher these are tied in to the inlet tract so this approuch is all ready showing us whats what.
What is F2, F3 and the other "F". Stage 1, stage 2, stage 3 ... ?????
And when you talk about alignment, is it in height, with or space between???

Dave asked
PS: Will a 6 turn coil fit properly inside the Combustion Chamber? If not, would you have to reduce the space between the coils from the 0.30 inches specified to something more like 0.20 inches?
Nope ... It won't fit. That gap between each turns is .25" and six turn is 1 turn to much.

The only thing we could consider later, would be bigger tube (5/8" Dia.) which would not make a big difference is lenght, but substantial in surface aera. And remember, size won't matter becasue the coils are an evaporating chamber. It would not mean more flow or pressure, since the orifices determine those. I say that in case you would ask... He he he.

But it is to late for that, the 1/2 tube are already ordered.

I also have to ask ... Were is Graham and Raymond. We have all the data we wanted. Now we need support and I am also preparing the engine with the other coils for further test. Don't let us down guys ... we need you.

Regards,

Luc

Raymond G
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:31 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Post by Raymond G » Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:23 pm

Luc wrote:
I also have to ask ... Were is Graham and Raymond. We have all the data we wanted. Now we need support and I am also preparing the engine with the other coils for further test. Don't let us down guys ... we need you.
It's good to feel wanted :o)

Sorry, other things have kept me a little busy. Am analysing now and will post soon.

Regards,
Raymond

luc
Posts: 768
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:05 pm
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Quebec, Canada

130R Power failure

Post by luc » Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:19 pm

Thanks Raymond,

You got me worried for a moment. This team does more progress on that engine, then anyone else before and I want to keep all my budys very close to me ... He he he.

I have a question regarding the engine flame front. In a well tunned engine, what make the flame front position were it should be and stable. Is it the 3/4 wave lenght, is it the reflection from the bottom of the chamber (I would guess it is 1/4 wave lenght) or both?

And I have a BIG REQUEST : I have sent 2 messages to Ron Nave, the "HyperPhysics" CD owner, without a single replys from him. So ... I would like to launch and few blood hound guys to hunt, seek and find that software. For someone that works of is backyard shop or any jet engine builder, this is a very important software to have. Anf if one day, this website vanish ... We are screwed ... So Guys.

Go... Go... Go .... Let all hunt down that software.

Her is the link : http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html

Cya guys,

Luc

Raymond G
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:31 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Post by Raymond G » Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:38 pm

Hi! I'm not an Acoustic Expert, but I play one on TV! ;o)

Quick observations:
Using the frequency equations from the manual, I have calculated resonences from the test run to compare to the sound file. See attached Excel file below:

Note: These values are incorrect!!! See post below
Stage 1 Resonence: 1230 hz (possible correlation to 1150 and/or 1290 hz in sound file )
Stage 2 Half Resonence: 441 hz (probable correlation to F3 and F6 1st harmonic)
Stage 3 Resonence: 968 hz (probable correlation to 1000 hz in sound file)
Taile Pipe Resonence: 1000 hz (correlation to Stage 3)

Note the mistuning of stages 1,2 and 3 (1230 hz, 882 hz vs 968 hz). Also note that F2 (287 hz) and F4 (575 hz) are simply higher harmonics of F1 (143 Hz).

Summarize:
F1: 143 hz, source unknown
F2: 1st harmonic of F1
F3: Probable Stage 2 half resonence
F4: 2nd harmonic of F1
F5: 718 hz, source unknown
F6: 1st harmonic of F3
1000 hz: Possilbe stage 3/tailpipe resonence
1150 hz: Possible stage 1 resonence, possible F1 3rd harmonic
1290 hz: Possible stage 1 resonence
1430 hz: 1st harmonic of F5
2290 hz: Possible F1 4th harmonic
2714 hz: Source unknown

So we have F1, F5, and 2714 hz as unique sources. Are they metal resonences (as opposed to fluid resonences)? Is one the sound of the propane jet? Someone smarter than I am please respond! Both the Luc and Gluey sound files have a low (136-143 hz) frequency sound as THE LOUDEST component. What is making that noise?

I welcome corrections!

Regards,
Raymond
Last edited by Raymond G on Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

luc
Posts: 768
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:05 pm
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Quebec, Canada

130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:35 pm

Hi Raymond,

Okey ... I think we are not on the same values at all. But I am not saying I am right. Okey, here are the numbers Viv and I talk about this morning.

First of all, if you go to the link below and use the open end tube, and file up the black aera, you will find out that we don't have the same values for stage 1 and 2 resonance.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html

My values are :

The engine is F1, the fundamental frequency and run at 143 Hz.
Stage 1 is 8" (.203 m) long at 374 °F (190 °C), runs at 1101 Hz.
Stage #2 is 14.625" (.371 m) long at 340 °F (171 °C) runs at 587 Hz.

Now, here is what I see on the spectrum :

F1 = is the Fundamental Freq. at 143 Hz
F2 = is F1 second harmonic at 287 Hz
F3 = is F1 third harmonic at 431 Hz
F4 = is F2 second harmonic at 575 Hz. I beleive this is stage 2.
F5 = is F1 Fifth harmonic at 718 Hz and I don't know what it is.
F6 = is F3 second harmonics at 866 Hz and I don't know what it is.

On the spectrum, you can see a spike as equal as F6, at around 1150 Hz and I beleive that the first stage.

Also, if you look at the spectrum Viv has posted for Eugene 130R sound tracks, you will see F3 at around 409 Hz. Talking to Viv, we beleive this could be his second stage. Also look at the amplitude of his F3.

It is possible that his engine second stage is align with the 3rd Harmonic and mine with the 4th Harmonic .... It is still a suspicion.

Also, if this F3 spike is the 2nd stage, obviously, this is a powerfull wave. Stronger then F2. This could be another problem on my engine. My F3 and F4 are weak.

Next planed action:

1) I will have the coils changed for the specidied material, which is SST-321 x .021" thick. We are to close to solve this, I will not mess around with then. Will improve later if we want, but not now.

2) The coils will be of Dave and I new design. Entering and exiting by the side and being spin together and annealed before assembly.

3) Stage 2 will be made telescopic. It will slide up and down in a 3 inch sleeve attached at the 3rd stage entrance, like Gluey use to do it.

4) I will by 4 more thermocouple for Stage 1, 2, 3 and chamber and take stable measurment at the middle point. By the way, a 4000 °F Thermocouple is $1,490.00.

5) We will record all temp. once more ... And this time, that will it. Thjese values will accurate 100%.

That the Plan .... and now is the time to put your comments.

PATRICKKKK .... WAKE-UP ... I HAVE WORK FOR YOU .....

Cya Guys

Luc ......................... Out

patrick35
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:26 pm
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: canada

130R Power Failure

Post by patrick35 » Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:16 pm

hi all .

yes LUC i'm awake ,lollllll i'm reading the post every day .
i will be all for you very soon , 2 litle more thing to do ( 2 hours max ) .

PATRICK .

Paul Thonnard
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:55 pm

Post by Paul Thonnard » Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:00 am

Hi Guys,

The little 5lb jet I run does not have holes in the 3rd stage, yet maintains sonic lock. My guess is that the combustion chamber volume is a Helmholtz resonator and the 3rd and 2nd stages are classic open-end linear resonators. I've modeled this approach and you get a stable node near the flame front. The diffusion in the 3rd stage helps (a little) in dynamic pressure recovery, but lowers the Q of the resonating system with the change in stage 3 cross sectional area. It may also make it more throttleable. My little engine does not have any diffusion in 3rd stage and does not throttle well either - it operates well only within a small band.

I don't have my info in front of me, but I remember at least one place where Gene commented that 1st stage does not have to be in tune with the system. Seemed to make sense to me; given the large difference in cross-sectional area between 1st and 2nd stage, coupling should be minimal. Also, it is furthest from the noise source.

For what it's worth...

Paul

Raymond G
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:31 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Post by Raymond G » Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:07 am

Danger! Danger! Danger! (well, maybe not that severe)
Okey ... I think we are not on the same values at all. But I am not saying I am right. Okey, here are the numbers Viv and I talk about this morning.
Luc, Your numbers are correct. I was using the equation out of Riley's manual, and IT IS WRONG!!!!

Riley p. 34

f=Sqrt{k*g*R*T1/(2*l)} WRONG!!!!!

should be
f={Sqrt(k*g*R*T1)}/(2*l)

The Riley equation lumps the characteristic length (2*l) under the square root sign, which is incorrect. Using the correct equation, I get the same values as Luc. I apolgize to anyone who was led astray. Please disregard the Excel file Gluey 1. I would go and edit my previously erroneous post, but the list seems to no longer give me that option.

Raymond

luc
Posts: 768
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:05 pm
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Quebec, Canada

130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:17 am

Hi Guys ... Hi Raymond,

Well ... Raymond said :
Danger! Danger! Danger! (well, maybe not that severe)
Quote:
Okey ... I think we are not on the same values at all. But I am not saying I am right. Okey, here are the numbers Viv and I talk about this morning.
Luc, Your numbers are correct. I was using the equation out of Riley's manual, and IT IS WRONG!!!!

Riley p. 34

f=Sqrt{k*g*R*T1/(2*l)} WRONG!!!!!

should be
f={Sqrt(k*g*R*T1)}/(2*l)

The Riley equation lumps the characteristic length (2*l) under the square root sign, which is incorrect. Using the correct equation, I get the same values as Luc. I apolgize to anyone who was led astray. Please disregard the Excel file Gluey 1. I would go and edit my previously erroneous post, but the list seems to no longer give me that option.
That exactly what a good team is made of. Team works and brain storm ... He he he.

No problem Raymond ... Just there, you and I have highlight the proof that the manual is missing alot of thing and maybe it is like that to mislead peples away from fiding the thruth ...

BUT .... We are getting closer and closer and closer every day.

Cya guys.

Luc

Locked