Gluhareff 130R power failure issue still open ... Any Idear?

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Raymond G
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Post by Raymond G » Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:12 pm

Why is it dangerous ... Explain please. I see no danger in blowing compressed air in the intake stack. This could be easy to do concidering that I have a 2000 psig. Nitrogen bottle here. I could easily pressurize the stack through the nozzle under 225 psig. and if it is tunned or tune it.
Please explain Raymond.
What I mean is blowing compressed air (i.e. shop air) into the 1st stage inlet, while the engine is running. Maybe start at a lower pressure like 20psi, and then slowly increase pressure to a higher vlaue, say 80psi. This could be dangerous as you are pressurizing a part of the engine that may not be designed for higher pressures, i.e. explode, and could cause the combustion temp to increase, though it will more likely decrease combustion temp. My gut feeling is that this would not be a problem, but if you do this you need to know what you are doing and understand it is entirely under your own risk.

I'm trying to think of a way to draw a picture to answer your question about tuning. It is not easy. Give me a little time

Raymond

luc
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130R power failure

Post by luc » Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:58 pm

Raymond ... or others guys, if you have the answer,

This made me think ... And I have a question :

While the engine is not running, what if I would blow compressed air or other gas, into the intake stack at 225 psig.
Would there be a simple way to record or visualize that 3/4 wave lengt?
What would happen or what would we hear?

The reason I am asking that is simple... remember the Iowa repport that we all read not long ago, they were talking about making sound recording inside the engine.

Could it be possible to tune the engine using just air and sound?

I am looking forward to read on that.

Regards,

Luc

Paul Thonnard
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Post by Paul Thonnard » Tue Feb 17, 2004 4:07 am

Hi Luc,

I don't think trying to get the system to resonate properly when there is no combustion will be too successful. The distance for the 1/4 wave is set for high temperature, while the distance for the 1/2 wave in 2nd stage is for cold flow.

Were you able to verify that the bottom of the 2nd stage is not resonating relative to the 3rd stage at full throttle?

Have you verified that the straight section in the propane ejector nozzle is approx. 2.5" long?

Finally, in the "Plans and Instructions for Building the G8-2 Jet" from Riley, in page 72 it states "Make sure the inlet flare is at 90 degrees to the body of the duct. If it is not, make the adjustments necessary in order to bring the flare into 90-degree alignment with the duct. If the inlet flare is not correctly aligned, the sonically tuned intake will not operate efficiently." Have you tried a version of the engine with the flares at 90-degrees?

luc
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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:16 pm

Hi Paul ... Guys,
Have you verified that the straight section in the propane ejector nozzle is approx. 2.5" long?
Yes Paul, as mentioned in a previous posting our engine is an accurate production as per Gluhareff drawings.
Finally, in the "Plans and Instructions for Building the G8-2 Jet" from Riley, in page 72 it states "Make sure the inlet flare is at 90 degrees to the body of the duct. If it is not, make the adjustments necessary in order to bring the flare into 90-degree alignment with the duct. If the inlet flare is not correctly aligned, the sonically tuned intake will not operate efficiently." Have you tried a version of the engine with the flares at 90-degrees?
And yes, all the flairs are at 90° from the straight section of all tubes and center line axes, including the 3rd stage.

But to comment on your theories about the flairs, the first engine that came here was purchased and did not include complet flairs, but still, we could not get maximum thrust from it. So, we manufactured another engine (Actually 2 engines) with 90° flairs. All 3 engines went on the load bench and were tested to be no more then 40 to 60 lbs. thrust capable.

There must be a way to tune these engine or at least ... verify their tuning, except by the fact that they are not pushing.

Luc Holmes .... continu the investigation .... he he he

Cya guys,

Luc .......................... Out

luc
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130R power failure

Post by luc » Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:39 pm

One more thing guys,

I often heard some of you mention that the Gluey engine is like an organ pipe. Even Craig wall, on many discussion we had, told me the same thing. But a organ pipe ... Can be adjusted or tuned. They use a diapason, you know, that little thing that look like a snail fork and they compare the sound or "Note" of the pipe to the diapason, then, they tune the pipe by adjusting the hole or the lengt of it.

My question to you ... Brainiacs ... he he he : What would be the instrument or tool that could be use to tune this engine (i.e: Microphone, software, spectral analyser ..... ect.)?

And what would be the shape, image display that an ideal tuning would look like?

I think it is time we stop talking about tuning, wave lengt and 3/4 wave, and start puting in place a way to do or verify the engine tuning.

HELLOOOOOO..... Is their an acoustic specialiste in this room ... You have the stage Sir ... We are all hears ... He he he.

Just doing a little humor here.

Cya guys,

Luc

Paul Thonnard
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Post by Paul Thonnard » Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:52 pm

Hi Luc,

Since the engine in the 3 photos that you posted did not have complete flares, I thought it was worth asking...

If it's not a radial resonance between 2nd and 3rd stage, I'm out of ideas!

Paul

luc
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130R Power failure

Post by luc » Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:07 pm

Paul,
Since the engine in the 3 photos that you posted did not have complete flares, I thought it was worth asking...
A 90° flair is complete when a 90° change of direction as occure. Of coarse, you can have different radius witch make then smaller or larger.

After your post, I when my self to do a fisical check on them. Just to double check. And beleive me, they are 90°.

Picture are not that accurate you know. But I will have my technician do a triple check and I will even ask him to reroll them. This way, will push this issu aside.

Regards,

Luc

luc
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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:06 pm

Hi again guys,

Okey ... I know that some of you that read this forum are new or come and go on this threat subject, wich is the Gluhareff 130R power failure.

Alot of time, question about dimensions arise and that understandable, from someone that just arrive on the forum and did not get the entire story. Also, the following pictures will probably destroy any residual dought that maybe some of you might still have ... And that to, is understandable, since you are not next to our engine on an every day base.

Therefore, I have included in that posting, a picture of the jigs we have used to manufacture our engine. All these jigs are within +/-.015" tolerance. It will also demonstrate, that the best and economical way to build such engine is by using the "Spining" Method. Al most no welding, plate bending, harmering or grinding.

As for the adjustment of the intake stack, I have included a picture of our 5 axis ajustment (I know Dave will love this one).

And for all the question about pressure, I have included a picture of our pump, wich is 125 psig. capable. Remeber the pump pressure is in addition to a 25 to 50 psig. nitrogen pressurization that produce our 150 to 175 psig. final pressure.

So ... With all the picture present on that forum, you guys have it all. And I hope that this will erase all discrepencies about our engine physical embodiment and support.

Ha ve look,

Cya,

Luc
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Jigs.JPG
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5 axis.JPG
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New Pump.JPG
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Paul Thonnard
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Post by Paul Thonnard » Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:58 pm

Hi Luc,

I stand corrected and don't want to get in the way of progress. I certainly was not trying to insult your quality or engineering.

Cheers,

Paul

luc
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130R Power failure

Post by luc » Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:16 pm

Paul,

By all means, I did not take that as an insult, far from that. I am only trying put every body at the same level, informations wise, solve all issues one by one and put aside the ones that we already know.

Don't stand corrected my friend ... Continu to investigate, like we all do ... He he he.

Also and furthermore, you questioning made me think and verify few items that I could have left behind. As of now, you braught my attention on our intake stack and I am re-calculating our engine wave lengt using the dimenssions we have here. I will try to establish the resonance of the stack.

All messages and postings have a purposes and each of them are positive ... Because they make us think.

So ... Keep up the thinking ... Mannnn, I have a headheack...

Cya,

Luc

luc
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130R Power Failure (HI THINK I GOT IT......!!!!!!!!)

Post by luc » Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:42 pm

Man ... I am a bad boy,

Guys, I think I got it. I think I know what is wrong with my engine.

Refering to the Gluey manual, section titled "Analysis of Sonically Tuned Intake" attached to this post, I think I know what is wrong and what tuning is (Thanks to you Paul ... he he he).

Using Gluhareff calculations and limiting my self to calculate the frequency using only ambient temperature (70 °F or 530 °R) both stage and to compare each one vs the other, I have come to conclude that :

Stage 2, wich is 14.625" long (Wave lengt of 29.25" long or 2.4375 ft. long) has a frequency of 462.76 Hz @ 70 °F.

Stage 3 to the bottom of the chamber, wich is 14.000" long (Wave lengt of 28.00" long or 2.33333 ft. long) has a frequency of 483.43 Hz @ 70 °F.

Now ... Correct me if I am wrong, but if I would want to tune them together, I would have to shorten stage 2 to match the frequency of stage 3.

Now, I need to calculate stage 3 average temperature in order to calculate the frequency. You guys can help me if you want, I am no engineer and no math wizard.

Now ... I have a picture of what "tuning" is. Sorry if it took me to long or missed that one.

Please verify and validate my numbers... And don't hold grudges against me.

Regards,

Luc
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Gluey Tuned Intake Analysis.doc
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Paul Thonnard
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Post by Paul Thonnard » Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:04 pm

Hi Luc,

Certainly no grudges. I think it is going to be nearly impossible for anyone to get at the exact length for your stage 2 by calculation. A couple of possible reasons:

1. the location on the curved wall in the combustion chamber where you would say the wave hits a "closed node" is somewhere between the center of the combustion chamber and the very outer part of the wall - I think Gene chose to depict the very outer part for simplicity.

2. your flamefront may sit at a slightly different place than where others did.

3. your environmental temperature is much lower and confounds the issue.

A thought - since you have already invested in some excellent dies, it might be much faster to make a stage 2 duct that is extra long (i.e. maybe 15.5 inches for extreme cold, assuming Gene had it optimally tuned for 70 degrees F). Then, test it at a few positions in height relative to the 3rd stage using your 5-axis positioner. It may actually perform worse than what you have now, but once you get the optimal location (best thrust), cut off 1/4 inch and try again. After a few iterations you should see if this improves thrust and will get a feel for what length gives you best tuning.

This may be a pain, but I don't think someone could accurately predict it with theory.

Cheers,
Paul

luc
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130R Power failure

Post by luc » Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:21 pm

Thanks for the reply,

Calculation could probably not give the exact location or lengt, but it could at least give me an idear if I am way off, considering I operate in cold weather.

Also remember what Eugene says in his analysis.
The third stage (including the burner) and the second stage are tuned operate on the ¾ wavelength. The system does not go out of tune from static to dynamic operation because it operates at ambient temperature. The average temperature of the third stage and combustion chamber remain in the tuned range under all operating conditions.
I think I should aim or calculate to the closest to the ideal condition and make this engine push, afterwhat, I should change the 70 °F Ambient temp. for a -22 °F (-30 °C or 437.67 °R) and see what the calculation has to say about this.

But...You guys are more then welcome to try it, or help me on that. Maybe we should compare.

Bye the way ... were are all the others ... Sleeping on the Job or what ?

he he he ....

Cya Guys,

Luc

luc
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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:05 pm

Okey guys,

As for the ram air issue ... Look in the attached image were the ram air is applied. Note that only stage 1 and 2 get pressurized. I even think that at high velocity rotation, stage 3 can become under vaccum (ventury effect)

So .. For the guys that were interested or puzzled by the "Ram Air" issue ... here some nice pictures.

Cya,

Luc
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Raymond G
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Post by Raymond G » Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:40 am

Luc,

The trouble I have with the Gluey equations as presented in the Riley manual, is that they do not really allow you to design an engine. The example for the 3rd stage injector calculates stage average temp from a known length. To go the other way around would require some guessing or measuring. What I suspect this means in real world terms is that Gluareff himself, probably guestimated and then tweeked the design untill it worked. So I do not know how helpful it would be to run any addional calcs. It should be worth noting that the example in the manual calcs an "average" temp for the 3rd stage inducer of 1670F. Certainly your combustion temp is MUCH higher than that presently, though what the average temp in the stage is is anybodies guess. Maybe you could probe into the inlet of the 3rd stage with you thermocouple at 1 in increments untill it overranges. That might shed some light on what that average temp, (and thus supposedly the 3rd stage length) might be.

Also, when the manual states that the induction system will stay in tune with varying ambient temps, it is worth noting that Gluareff lived in Southern California, where the ambient condition is consistently warm (65-85F) and dry (30-45% humidity) all year around. It seems doubtful that he ever really took the engine to a cold moist climate (i.e. Canada :-) ) to verify the claim. Also, the the exhaust stack should change tuning with ambient temp at a different rate than the induction stack. Now that may not make a difference across a 10-20F temp range, but what about a 50-100F temp range?

I guess my point is that it should not be suprising if you need to tweek the dimensions a little to get the engine to work in your environment.

Regards,
Raymond

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