help in designing a small turbine

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Zippiot
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help in designing a small turbine

Post by Zippiot » Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:57 am

well the other project i was working on, described at the bottom of this post, isnt going to work it seems...

so i want to make a turbine. i made one in the past, super mega crude design, all homebuilt, and the bearings seized cause i just ripped them out of a dremel.

so i need some help, i have access to much mahcining equipment, including mills lathes drills and just about everything inbetween. but i dont really have access to a welder, i can get stuff welded but i need to get all the pieces together at the same time that need to be welded. if possible i would like to avoid much welding.

the smaller the turbine the better. you all know which sizes are the easiest, so please correct me if i overstep my talents. i was thinking one about the size of an arizona iced tea aluminum can (standard 23.5 ounce can, just a longer soda can really i got one sitting next to my computer and it looks like a good size).

now the biggie, it doesnt need to make useable thrust. it would be great if it could, but i just want it to run. i dont know how much thrust i can squeeze out of a soda can sized jet, but maybe 2 lbs of thrust (?) is reasonable...

lets see what i know about turbines...

i need a compressor, the turbine itself, the turbine in the exhaust that spins the shaft (obviously i dont know the proper name of it) driveshaft, combustion chamber, flameholder, exhaust intake and shell...

i really want to build most of it by myself, so the fewer part si have to buy the better. bearings is an exception, i never want to hear the sound of a turbine seizing again!! can the turbine (front/intake) not be made of metal? i have seen some using computer fans or wooden turbines, so if it is possible to avoid a metal one (which i would have to buy prolly..) i would like that. remember a sacrifice of eprformance isnt a big issue i jsut want it to run.

well i am sure i left out many important details, any help is appreciated guys and gals

and keep in mind, i have no plans, as of now, on using this motor in any real application. weight really isnt an issue. trust me it will be a long time and a lot of practise before istrap anything i have made to anything else i have made...


now my failed project:
i was trying to convert my old flying rc wing into a ducted fan jet. problem is, the electrical i got weighs more than 1/2 of what the total jet can weigh. and it is difficult to get the thing up with the motor i have, quite weak for its weight i guess, the physics of the thing just werent looking good. i have made 2 jets so far, each 80% complete, and they are alkready at the 16 ounce limit, without the edf unit or skin...it just wasnt going to work...made me sad as wussy as that sounds

i was trying to convert it because it is too hard for me to fly, i was trying to make somethign a bit easier, which just wasnt workoing out.
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Zippiot
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re: help in designing a small turbine

Post by Zippiot » Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:06 am

i completely forgot, i dont want to make a turbo charger (car or truck) turbine. im looking at the "real" inline turbines. i know saying "real" will get me chewed out but i mean no offense, i am looking for one style that may not be the type you chose...
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re: help in designing a small turbine

Post by Zippiot » Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:27 am

something like this, or at least the same size and such, mine doesnt need to produce useable thrust rememebr. keepin it simple, babay steps

http://www.gasturbine.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/page2.htm

edit: i am willing to use the compressor wheels from a cars turbo, provided i can get then for very little pocket cash...money is growing tight, so homebuilding msot of it is preferred
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re: help in designing a small turbine

Post by Zippiot » Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:00 am

or i just shell out the 63 bux for the book
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer- ... oding=UTF8
its worth it, every online resource of a person building a turbine started from things learned in this bok, its worth a shot i guess...
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re: help in designing a small turbine

Post by Johansson » Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:52 am

Getting a few books on the subject is a good idea, the main ingredience in a gas turbine is math and plenty of it... ;-)

http://geetel.net/~turbojer/gallery7.htm

This guy calls himself Turbojet and has a nice website with plenty of fun, he has built a "cheap" micro turbine with only the compressor wheel factory made. Many parts are made from stainless kitchen ware collected from stores.

If you have the right equipment and a bag full of patience something like this would be the way to go, it is heavy and produces little thrust therefore easier and cheaper to make and than a "real" flight engine.

//Anders

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re: help in designing a small turbine

Post by Zippiot » Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:44 am

he made it from designs in the two books i was looking at. i definitely am getting that book, and possibly the one written by kamps if i like the first one. that is exactly what i was looking for, just one that works to prove to myself i can do it...
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Re: re: help in designing a small turbine

Post by skyfrog » Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:09 am

Zippiot wrote:i completely forgot, i dont want to make a turbo charger (car or truck) turbine. im looking at the "real" inline turbines. i know saying "real" will get me chewed out but i mean no offense, i am looking for one style that may not be the type you chose...
Start with popular books such as Kamps is a good idea. However if you want to design your own engine you'll need further study as to gas turbine theory.

In addition to design everything from scratch, there are some shortcuts that might be easier to get a running engine. That is to purchase commerically available turbine wheel nad NGV combo, and the matching compressor, then around these parts design all the rest for example combustor and diffuser etc.
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re: help in designing a small turbine

Post by Johansson » Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:24 am

In this case I don´t think the budget will cover a balanced turbine and NGV, and since the engine is not supposed to propel anything it would be overkill to spend so much $$$ on things that can be made with a chunk of stainless and a bit of trial and error...

Besides, I fully agree with Zippiot about building an engine from scratch since the pleasure of starting a gas turbine in which every part (almost...) is made by yourself would be hard to beat.

//Anders

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Re: re: help in designing a small turbine

Post by skyfrog » Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:44 pm

Johansson wrote:In this case I don´t think the budget will cover a balanced turbine and NGV, and since the engine is not supposed to propel anything it would be overkill to spend so much $$$ on things that can be made with a chunk of stainless and a bit of trial and error...

Besides, I fully agree with Zippiot about building an engine from scratch since the pleasure of starting a gas turbine in which every part (almost...) is made by yourself would be hard to beat.

//Anders
Not quite as to the budget issue. Nowadays the market is quite distributed many vendors provide solutions in low cost. Safety is another issue, home builders do not tend to have the ability of making a turbine which could operate safely in high speed and high temperature.

If you have enough patience and time, do it yourself from scratch, otherwise standing on others shoulder would be a nice decision.
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re: help in designing a small turbine

Post by Zippiot » Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:56 pm

i got the time, and in this case patience. i am about to complete my aa degree in machining, so i got some knowledge of the machine shop and tools...

i am a pro with the lathe, but the mill still takes a long time for me to complete simple thing...well ill just have to practise.

from what i have gathered, the turbine is made from a flat stock cut and bent, as long as it is balanced and doesnt come apart i should be fine. i can reinforce it with composites if need be.

but is this feasible: turbojets used in fighter craft have multiple compressor wheels. alternating from spinning and stationary. this would increase power correct? why does no one use this in their home turbines, just cause its too hard?
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re: help in designing a small turbine

Post by steve » Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:59 pm

what would really be amazing is counter-rotating compressor wheels, but this extremely hard to engineer. the bennifits of such a system would be worth the effort in my opinion.
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re: help in designing a small turbine

Post by Zippiot » Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:30 pm

actually my neighbor has one. it is a jet out of a helicopter, the compressors go geared clockwise, stationary, geared counter clockwise ,stationary continued, plus they have adjustable pitch. maybe thats why it costs 600k each for a new one...

well the guy is nuts, he change dit from geared for helicopter drive to thrust. it makes 1000 pounds of thrust (doesnt seem like much...). but it doesnt need much, it is strapped to a vw beetle (new beetle). runs off of kerosine...ill try to get a pic next time he runs it

counter rotating compressor blades isnt too far-fetched, just hard on a small turbine.
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re: help in designing a small turbine

Post by Zippiot » Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:16 pm

does this look good guys?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/3-LIKE-N ... enameZWDVW

still trying to buy as few parts as possible, but 55 bux for 3 seems reasonable


edit: i found the other end (i think) http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T4-P-tri ... enameZWDVW
well these 2 plus the book is gonna set me back a little...will it be worth it or is there another place where i can get the front turbines? how easy is it to make your own? i have heard of using the ones from a leaf blower will work better b/c they are larger...
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re: help in designing a small turbine

Post by Fricke » Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:38 pm

I´d try to find a turbocharger and use the compressor and shaft/turbine from it... As they are normally matched to each other. And are the hardest part to make.

Try to give a turborepair shop a call and se what they have...

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re: help in designing a small turbine

Post by Zippiot » Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:48 pm

there arent many places locally that have them, i called the nearby pik and pulls and they are picked clean of turbos...the best i can find is some muffler repair shop, but all the turbos are dammaged (not the housing but the part i actually need...)

so ill just check ebay for a small complete turbo, hopefully i can find one for under 100 bux but we will see...
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