Someone has to try this

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Mark
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DETA

Post by Mark » Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:55 am

I noticed this epoxy curing agent, (diethylenetriamine), listed on this site, http://www.dhs.ca.gov/ohb/HESIS/epoxy.htm , is also listed as an ingredient in a liquid rocket fuel comprising 40% of the mixture.
http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=get ... =AD0846929

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylenetriamine

http://tinyurl.com/2v2w4g

On the below link be sure to click on this line/Techical bulletin, I can't direct link it.
DETA Technical bulletin (PDF, 667kb)
http://www.huntsman.com/performance_pro ... ageID=1401
It just doesn't seem like a good choice to use on your clothing.

TOXICITY AND SAFETY
"Because of the fragility of eye tissue, almost any eye contact with any ethyleneamine may cause irreparable damage, even blindness. A single, short exposure to ethyleneamines, may cause severe skin burns, while a single, prolonged exposure may result in the material being absorbed through the skin in harmful amounts. Exposures have caused allergic skin reactions in some individuals. Single dose oral toxicity of ethyleneamines is low. The oral LD50 for rats is in the range of 1000 to 4500 mg/kg for the ethyleneamines.
The principal hazards that arise in working with diethylenetriamine (DETA) are those associated with similar organic amines; namely, a corrosive action on skin and eyes. Precautions should be taken to prevent contact with these parts of the body such as by use of protective clothing and chemical goggles. If contact occurs, immediately flush the exposed area with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes. Eye exposures should be examined by a physician. Contaminated clothing should be laundered before reuse."

Launder before reuse. ha
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Zippiot
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Post by Zippiot » Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:34 am

Ive been workin with fiberglass and epoxies for years, its nasty stuff true but its not so toxic and leathal you cant keep it in your kitchen!!
Few types of epoxies, or resins I should say. Vinyl-Ether resin uses MEKP as its catalyst curing agent, MEKP=explosive!!!!!
I dont think I'm gonna pursure this though, might test if I can diffuse comrpessed air into molten sugar but atm working on school stuff.
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Post by Mark » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:10 pm

I think it is just one of those things that the world would be better off without. The other day I was walking my dogs and I could actually smell some kind of laundry perfumy agent in the air coming from some house.

"The health effects of synthetic fragrances, especially in fabric softeners, is becoming more and more evident. Many people experience respiratory ailments, such as asthma, bronchitis, walking pneumonia, and allergic coughs without giving any thought that the culprit could be the products used in their washer and dryer. The sad truth is that by using fabric softener sheets, as they outgas through the dryer vents, we're also endangering the health of our neighbors. Fabric softeners contain chemicals known to cause cancer/ and or damage to the lungs, brain and nerves. We need to become informed consumers for our health, that of our family, community and planet. Baking soda does an excellent job as a non-toxic fabric softener and anti-static agent; and it's much more economical, naturally."
http://www.ourlittleplace.com/article7.html

"It is the most toxic product produced for daily household use. It has been found to be associated with numerous illnesses and chronic conditions."
http://www.aeha.ca/help-with.htm

"Fabric softeners work by leaving a residue on the fabric which never completely washes out. It can cause allergic reactions through skin contact and inhalation. Fabric softeners may also contain carcinogenic coal-tar dyes, ammonia and very strong scents. When fabric softeners are exposed to hot water, heat from dryers or ironing, vapours may be emitted which can be deeply inhaled, increasing their impact."
http://www.lesstoxicguide.ca/index.asp?fetch=household
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PyroJoe
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Post by PyroJoe » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:55 pm

Maybe bubble some oxygen into a hard wax? oxygen wax foam, sounds like fun. ha

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Post by Mark » Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:30 pm

This was an old topic posted here before.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003 ... rocket.htm
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PyroJoe
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Post by PyroJoe » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:57 pm

There is a "foam starch" product used to replace packing styrofoam "peanuts". Maybe foam oxygen in a dense starch. Probably be safe enough to eat. ha

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Post by PyroJoe » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:00 pm

Double post deleted

Zippiot
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Post by Zippiot » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:26 pm

Doubt foam could hold the pressure, if epoxy couldnt no chance for foam.
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Post by Mike Everman » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:36 pm

I was thinking bubbling O2 into melted thermoplastic of some sort in a pressure vessel. Could be a bomb while you're injecting, though. Not much better than foaming it in exothermic epoxy. Maybe if you go with a real slow blow epoxy so it doesn't get too hot(?)

This all sounds SO dangerous, but what a cool idea, pockets of oxy under pressure in a fuel matrix. Very creative!

maybe you have a window on the end of the pressure vessel (pipe bomb, ha), and use UV curing potting compound. I don't know if that material heats up when UV curing, though. This all gives me the willies.

Faaaaascinating!
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Mark
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PET PROJECT

Post by Mark » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:21 pm

Well, it's about that time of year again to get down the old PET bottle and stand on it. I just did and it still is holding enough pressure to stand on. Stewart Smalley would be proud. ha
I wonder if you could micro-bubbulate this mylar/polyester/dacron material with oxygen?
Long ago I had this big plan to make a boat out of these bottles, I had at least a hundred and I made a neat inflator that twisted the cap on the rest of the way after pressurizing the bottle. I calendared one to see how long it would hold pressure. I guess the answer is 16 years, if you don't stress the cap area. ha
There are all sorts of neat shapes you can make with the bottles combined too, stacking or bundling them in symmetric ways. Anyway, I guess it would burn with pure oxygen well enough if you could keep it from reacting while forming. Just dreaming really, I wouldn't hold my breath on PET rockets sweeping the nation. ha
"PET, as with many plastics, is also an excellent candidate for thermal recycling (incineration) as it is composed of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen with only trace amounts of catalyst elements (no sulphur) and has the energy content of soft coal."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene_terephthalate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Smalley
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metiz
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Post by metiz » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:56 am

What does it say on the bottle? I can't quite make it all out
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Daily Affirmations

Post by Mark » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:06 am

It says other people can work through their feelings and problems, so can I. ha What mush! Stewart Smalley would say, "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me."
I should say the bottle is not rock hard but it still held all 190 pounds of me.

I also have these six pretty green bottles that were made way back when over a decade ago and they too are still quite taunt. Even guys with big muscly arms couldn't pull them apart. I RTVed them along each side that touches and made little connectors too out of PVC.
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Last edited by Mark on Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Zippiot
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Post by Zippiot » Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:15 am

What we need to find is at what temp compressed gasses cna penetrate and diffuse. Then decide if thats too close to its ignition point.

Your run of the mill plastic will be castable around 400 degrees, polycarb and acrylic higher than that.

If you can make a pressurable heatable device that can hold the grain I see no reason why you couldnt do this, just need to find the correct material as the fuel.

Would Nitrous be any safer than pure O2?
Sailing Student- How do I know if my life jacket is tight enough?
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Mark
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Wiki N20

Post by Mark » Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:14 am

[edit] Rocket motors
"Nitrous oxide can be used as an oxidizer in a rocket motor. This has the advantages over other oxidizers that it is non-toxic and, due to its stability at room temperature, easy to store and relatively safe to carry on a flight. As a secondary benefit it can be readily decomposed to form breathing air. Its high density and low storage pressure enable it to be highly competitive with stored high-pressure gas systems."

"Nitrous oxide has been the oxidizer of choice in several hybrid rocket designs (using solid fuel with a liquid or gaseous oxidizer). The combination of nitrous oxide with hydroxyl-terminated polybutadiene fuel has been used by SpaceShipOne and others. It is also notably used in amateur and high power rocketry with various plastics as the fuel. An episode of MythBusters featured a hybrid rocket built using a paraffin/powdered carbon mixture as its solid fuel and nitrous oxide as its oxidizer."

"Nitrous oxide can also be used in a monopropellant rocket. In the presence of a heated catalyst, N2O will decompose exothermically into nitrogen and oxygen, at a temperature of approximately 1300 °C. Because of the large heat release the catalytic action rapidly becomes secondary as thermal autodecomposition becomes dominant. In a vacuum thruster, this can provide a monopropellant specific impulse (Isp) of as much as 180s. While noticeably less than the Isp available from hydrazine thrusters (monopropellant or bipropellant with nitrogen tetroxide), the decreased toxicity makes nitrous oxide an option worth investigating. Because of its release of very high temperature oxygen as a monopropellant the addition of even small amounts of a fuel such as hydrogen rapidly increases the specific impulse and the high oxygen temperatures simplify ignition of the fuel. Isp greater than 340 seconds can be readily achieved. its low freezing point also eases thermal management as compared to hydrazine- a valuable property on a spacecraft which may contain quantities of cryogenic propellant."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_ox ... ket_motors
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Post by Mike Everman » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:00 am

Nice. Great, actually! Sounds as if you could melt a variety of things and bubble high pressure Nitrous into it and let the foam harden. ooooh
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