Different oxidizers?

[Zippiot]

I was planning on ordering a bunch of different oxidizers

including:
potassium perchlorate
ammonium nitrate
ammonium perchlorate
potassium chlorate

and a few others

I was wondering if there is a fuel that will work accross the board? I want to comapre it to poassium nitrate, which I use now. Will sugar work as a fuel for the above oxidizers or do I need to order another fuel?

Just trying to see cost effectiveness of each, see if its worth its price in thrust.

[Tom]

Potassium Chlorate and sugar in an engine casing... Christ. That's a fairly powerful mix right there...

Are you doing the chemistry for this? I'm almost certain that theres no Stochiometry equations going on here.

Whatever happened to Mike K? He used to be no end of help to me before I got my Chemistry education...

[Zippiot]

I asked my chem teacher to help with the stoich but he is clueless (More like senile).

Stoich is why I got a C in chem, I can make a rocket out of fertilizer and food but I cannot do stoich. I can ballance an equation pretty well, and since the web is of little help as no sites carry the same stoich...and my chem teacher is of no help...I may have to try it myself...

I do know that chlorates tend to be super sensitive, the question is when mixed with sugar is it a viable propellant? Or just abandon melting sugar into it?

The chlorate was always sketchy, the main quesation is will a sugar fuel work in ammonium perchlorate ammonium nitrate and potassium perchlorate?

[Zippiot]

I have an instant cold pack from the early 90's. It contains 3 different chemicals (oh yay!). 2 powders and 1 bag of water. The water obviously isnt the ammonium nitrate, but there are 2 different powders in it. One powder, the one touching the bag of water, is similar to mgso4 in consistancy (see through crystals larger than normal sugar granuals). The other powder looks more like kno3, both seem to react and make water cold...
There was a lot more of the chemical touching the water.

Does anyone know whch is the an so I can save some time before I try to make a propellant? Also can an be used in an rcandy style of prep, my coffe grinder broke...

[Greg O'Bryant]

Zipiot; AN will cool water down when it goes into the solution. I tried to make a propelant once that was made with sugar and AN but it didn't work. I also made a propellant one time out of charcol, AN and Potasium nitrate that burned slowly and produced a lot of gas. I got the recipe out of "the chemistry of powder and explosives" it is suposed to be as powerful as smokeless powder. This propellant wouldn't grind up that nicely in my ball mill so I thought to use sugar as a substitute for the charcol. When I did this I used the recrystalization method, but it wouldn't crystalize. I don't think that sugar has enough energy to work good with AN by itself. You may be able to make a propellant that will have KNO3 in it with AN and Sugar you just can't do the recrystalization technique. As for the chlorates and perchlorates I don't know. I did read somewhere that the reason nobody ever made black powder out of chlorates is becuase nobody could find out a way to keep it from detonating! Last the easy way to do stoich equations with sugar is to neglect the water part of the sugar untill the end when you are converting from percentages to weight.

[Dang911]

WARNING!!! DO NOT MIX SUGAR WITH POTASSIUM PERMAGINATE. It will form a water sensitive compound, capable of ignition with just water, or moisture. I have mixed them at an instant and used it as an oxidizer with sugar, but I do not let them sit together very long.

[Zippiot]

potassium permanganate is used in the volcano reaction right?

[Zippiot]

:)

I do know what I am doing, just the area of using the same fuel accross the board with the different oxidizers wont work, testing shows...As each has special properties that as a fuel, such as sugar, cannot be used in certain situations.
Finding this out took some guess work as the decomposition point of potassium based oxidizers and ammonium based oxidizers varies dramatically.

The sig is a joke, ever since I found some kno3 at the hardware store people call me up asking when the next launch is.

It looks like the fuel I will be using is aluminum, even though ammonium nitrate works best with magnesium...


Buy a book...Already spent like 120 on 2 turbines books how far back can a little rocket chem set me back?

[Dang911]

Are you F@%#ing kidding me? Sorry to be harsh, but if your thinking about using aluminum you are real dumb. You obviously just think of things, and tell you self, lets mix some of that with this and see what happens. I think you better hold off on your experimenting until you have "real" chemistry knowledge. If you can't do stoichiometry, what are you using to support these crazy concoctions you are putting together. I'm calling them crazy not because they won't work, but because you have no real knowledge of what you are making/doing, or the science behind how the composition will react. Aluminum will kill you, that's how you make flash powder, the most explosive compound under a class 1 explosive. Ammonium nitrate is what was used in the oklahoma city bombing. Flash powder, although more commonly made with potassium (per)chlorate will explode without any confinement! And you want to make a mix of that and pack it into a tube, real smart. I didn't even mention that the compound is heat and friction sensitive, but again, I'm sure you know all about how chemicals react with one another. Reading it online is not a substitute for calculating a balanced, efficient, and predictable reaction. Do yourself a favor, and stick with kno3 and sugar, and wait on the experimentation until you have a true understanding of chemistry.

[Zippiot]

How powerful of an explosive are we talking? More or less than tnt?

Yes I see that now that I have been ready the rocketry book I bought, aluminum is suited to ammonium perchlorate, potassium perchlorate is nothing like ammonium perchlorate, and same goes for potassium nitrate and ammonium nitrate.

Be harsh it is important that someone tells me this before It explodes in my face, like so many bottles of hydrogen have before...

Also a man who participates in many nar displays said he would help me...but I am beginning to think he is crazy. His suggestion for an ejection charge for my g class re-useable motor was 1.5 grams of acetone peroxide...I have to admit it works but sites have said the stuff is more sensitive than nitroglycerin!!!! Either we made it wrong or is isnt as sensitive as nitro, we put a pile of it on a paper ontop of a metal sheet and smashed it with a hammer, no reaction. But the slightest flame sets it off, huge rush of air and so little heat was why he recomended it...and I wasnt having much luck with black powder...

It is safe to say his rocket motors are not nar certified, so he uses the aerotech ones or something like that.


Don't chew me out about making acetone peroxide, I don't plan on doing it anymore as the stuff scares the crap outta me.

[Zippiot]

What do all of you use an an ejection charge?

Has anyone tried a composite propellant surrounding a knsu core? Not an endburner, but like fitting a piece of pvc pipe into its connector...

Also at what temp does ammonium perchlorate and aluminum burn? The book isnt clear wherther or not aluminum can be used as a motor tube...

[Tom]

Everyone else in the world uses BP or something very similar. I wouldn't trust AP to not go off during launch, or even whilst prepping. Not exactly ideal for rocket use IMO.

To be perfectly honest, I don't like where this discussion keeps going. Some crazy idea, feedback from the forum, then another crazy idea, along with random things that suggest this might not be the best idea for you, like that little reference to exploding H2 cannisters.

Seriously. Some general reading around is going to help you so much. Take a long hard look at sites which offer information on propellant formulation. Not only will you be a lot safer, but will probably end up with a higher performing propellant if you actually put the effort into designing it.

[Dang911]

Look Zippiot, stay away from the aluminum. Its just not for you. If you must use large grain magnesium, but still you should stay away from both of those powdered metals. They burn too rapidly and release way to much gas to be in a confined rocket engine. I guarantee your first engine and probably your 10th would still be bombs. You just don't know what your working with, and your not a pro at any of this. SO why try to be? Stick with the true known basics.

[Zippiot]

Ok stay away from AP (both kinds) and try to use BP for an ejection charge...

The book says 3 grams of Bp for every inch of rocket body tube between the motor top and the nose cone bottom, that seems a bit excessive to me...Can't buy Bp around here so I gotta make it, and I am sure my Bp isn't as good as real Bp. But I may be able to grab some smokeless powder, stuff burns super slow unless extremely confined right?

Also the book says for an ejection charge a mix of 80-20 kno3 charcoal can be used, sulfur makes it ignite faster but will it burn at the same rate?

[Ray]

Two books will help you in your quest to make rocket motors...the first focuses on SAFELY making motors and is focused toward AP/PBAN (although AP/HTPB is more common in the amateur world) based mixes. Some of them include metals like aluminum and Magnesium. When handled correctly it is safe. I must emphasize "HANDLED CORRECTLY".

The first book you should read is this one. It covers the basics.

The second book is this one.

Now go and order them, read them several times and UNDERSTAND THEM. Stop PLAYING with energetic chemistry.

Absolutely DO NOT mix any chlorate with any metal...you may not survive to tell the story.

Commercial BP is the stuff to use for ejection charges...4F is the stuff you want. I believe that both NAR and TRA have ejection charge calculators...3grams per inch of body tube is too much.

Smokeless powder is useless in rocketry...

Richard Nakka uses some stuff he made called crimson powder, if you can't get BP, try some of that.

You should fly some commercial made motors to gain some experience in rocketry in general. Just to get the basics under your belt...things like recovery methods, construction methods, etc. You'll learn a lot from a community that is very helpful. Don't start talking about making rocket motors with them until you have done a sucessful level two flight...Go to Tripoli if you want to do research motors, NAR is more for just hobby and high power stuff.

BTW, that's me on the NAR front page...I'm the guy on the left of the rocket.