Wing In Ground-effect craft

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luc
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re: Wing In Ground-effect craft

Post by luc » Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:29 am

Holly shit mate,

What the **** did you have in your mind ... Attempting a ride like this ... ALONE.

Okey .... here is my check list for your next ride :
1) Helmet
2) Safety vest ... (Not bullet PROFF).
3) Shutoff ripe cord.
4) Minimum of 2 withness and one in the damn boat.
5) Minimum fuel quanttity.
6) A Crusifix in your pocket.
7) $1,000,000 Inssurance coverage ... To my name.

Overall ... I am happy you got out of this one okey.

Mannnn .... Drop your pants and look at your balls ...

THEY ARE BLEST.

We wish you nice recovery,

Luc

El-Kablooey
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re: Wing In Ground-effect craft

Post by El-Kablooey » Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:31 am

Ouch! That sucks man! You are lucky, really lucky. I've had two friends be killed (different instances) in pretty much the same situation, only bigger boats. Kill switches are an absolute must in a prop driven boat, I feel pretty crappy for not stressing that issue before you had an accident.

I know you Aussie's are tough, so I trust you and your buddy will be back to 100% soon.


BTW, I will take it easy at first! You are right, without a prop in the water my little boat will perform completely different than yours. I will have to do a bit of experimenting to get it right, and I'll probably get my ass burned (literally)! Maybe we can get together someday and compare minimax scars!

You guys get well soon!
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Rossco
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re: Wing In Ground-effect craft

Post by Rossco » Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:32 am

Hey, thanks Viv!

Good of you to bring those sort of words back to my attention now! HA

I should have known then, as i have a kid, if you tell them "dont, youll fall" they will!

I was holding a new kill switch in my hand, the rip cord type, the very same day, i just had to take it out "one more time" without it tho.

My mate is just another victim of city society! I hate the city, being country blokes we just dont think of these type of things happening.
There was three of them walking home at night, fully grown men.
From what i can understand of the scetchy story, they where jumped from behind, without a chance of defence.
The police where right there, and got them, although im not confident that they will get anything of what they diserve!

Thanxs for your concern.

Rossco
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Rossco
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re: Wing In Ground-effect craft

Post by Rossco » Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:49 am

Luc, thanx for the scolding! I can just see you waggling your finger at me from that distance.

Yes, i know, all could have been avoided!
Just in defince, i would like to tick off one in your checklist.
I did have two other people there, although not in the boat. I think that would be imposible. We had another boat there the time before, although i think that was more dangerous than good.
After the incident, i lay back in the water, trying to breath and yell to them all at the same time. I croaked out "I think i need to be dragged back". Meaning that i couldnt get myself to shore or even out from under the boat. In hindsite, it is halerious that they interpreted this as... I've got a broken back!... but it sure got me a quick rescue responce!

Ill be fine! just a bit sore. Lesson learned father Luc.
And yes, i did go to hospital in the end, even if three days later. Your not the only one to tell me off for this little adventure.

Ill think about your checklist... maybe a helmet would be a good idea!

Joey, dont feel bad. I wouldnt have listened anyway.

Rossco
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ed knesl
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re: Wing In Ground-effect craft

Post by ed knesl » Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:17 am

Rossco,

Don't feel bad ! Things happen to people who are active and experiment
with different stuff. Life is dangerous. I know, coul'd have been avoided,
but after the battle, everybody is a general.
( three wekks ago I messed my eye, also stupid accident )

I wish you the fastest recovery and next time more luck !

Ed
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Dave
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re: Wing In Ground-effect craft

Post by Dave » Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:41 am

Rossco

That is some wild ride you took.

Just remember: Pain goes away, Chicks love scars and Legends live forever…

Glad you were not seriously hurt and I hope your friend makes it through OK.

Dave

Viv
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re: Wing In Ground-effect craft

Post by Viv » Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:08 am

Hey don't sweat mate we were both just scared to do death to hear what had happened to you:-(

Rolling round the floor laughing our heads off we were not going to mention:-)

There but for the grace of god go I is a saying we have learned to our cost over the years

Viv

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re: Wing In Ground-effect craft

Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:13 am

Good grief! What a story... I sat back and pictured it all, like a movie. I can see it very clearly.

Here's to staying alive!

larry cottrill
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re: Wing In Ground-effect craft

Post by larry cottrill » Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:51 pm

Rossco -

I just read your story. I am very glad you came through it to tell the tale. Sometimes you have to think back to what your Mum said and, well, just be careful. That checklist is pretty good.

Now you see why I like my machines flying around me, at the end of 80 ft of cable ;-)

All the best to you, and your friend, too.

L Cottrill

Anders Troberg
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re: Wing In Ground-effect craft

Post by Anders Troberg » Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:25 am

Ouch, that was a wild ride!

Good to hear that you are OK and that you are not put off by this accident.

You should thank the god of inventors (Wile E Coyote, he never gives up and he never runs out of ideas, even when the very laws of nature are stacked against him.) that you are not hurt and that there was no one around with a camcorder...

Rossco
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re: Wing In Ground-effect craft

Post by Rossco » Tue Jan 03, 2006 2:33 am

Hey, back onto this now.

Anders, I could have been payed good money i reackon if i had a vid of it! Musta looks halarious really!

Right, to Joey, continuing on!

For obvious reasons, i have not got an exact optimal CG point for you yet. BUT, at last test (mmmmm, water, boats), It is in the vacinity of 200mm in front of the transom??????? Including pilot! Now how you gonna do that with an engine 1/10th of the weight? Not to mention that you have no hosepower to get you over onto plane.
Now i see why the "plans" (that i did not follow) have the engine board procariously mounted, hanging of out the back... but this still could never have got the thing hanging right with anything less than a 20Hp out the ass???
By the way, mine really hoots without the pilot! CG would be set purfectly i recon for RC... might be an idea actualy! NAAAAH

So much for our initial concerns about flipping too easily!

Even though your "gun rail"? power plants sound sexy indeed... what you sound like you might be going for now is rear extended engines? Maybe even fuel?
This assumption is taken from your "conked on the back of the head by a hot engine" comment.

Im assuming that your still researching WIG craft, and that youve run into the "new" wig toys?
http://www.zippyvideos.com/4603120202347646/hydrofoam
The mind just boggles doesnt it!
Piss that engine off, lay a jet either side with the intake wrapped around the augmenting shape under the boat!

Rossco
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Anders Troberg
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re: Wing In Ground-effect craft

Post by Anders Troberg » Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:49 am

Im assuming that your still researching WIG craft, and that youve run into the "new" wig toys?
These models have very little to do with ground effect. Basically, they just use the first law of aerodynamics: everything will fly with a sufficiently large engine. They just pull themselves around on a strong engine, and the light body just trails along, somewhat like a dart. Add big control surfaces and you get the manouverability.

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re: Wing In Ground-effect craft

Post by El-Kablooey » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:25 am

Your CG thoughts only apply to an outboard driven minimax. Think about it. When you are running at speed, the boat is a few millimeters above the water's surface usually, occasionally "skipping" if you run across some wake, or turn. As when you had your accident, you noticed that you could put all your weight directly on top of the engine. That is true of any (overpowered) outboard ddriven boat, The little cavitation plate above your prop becomes a hydrofoil of sorts, supporting the engine. With a decent hydroplane design the boat rides on the outboard's cavitation plate almost all the time.

I suspect that it will be a different world in a minimax propelled by jet thrust, balance will become a much bigger issue.

I am still intending to build a WIG. Still researching and trying to work out a decent "first try" design. I may still try to fly my minimax, seems almost too easy. Set it up like Universal Hovercraft's wig, Just slap on some fabric wings and a tail (ok, I know it's a little more complicated than that). That's basically what they did with their existing hovercraft.
I really think I can do better than starting with the minimax though. What I want to build is a reverse-delta wing with a slight anhedral, and a small tail, with the driver riding motorcycle style at the very front of, or maybe in front of the wing. Light enough, and built with crashing in mind I think it could be as safe as a jet-ski. Easy to bail from, and in the event of a crash I would probably be thrown a good distance from the wig, keeping bone-breakage to a minimum. With a good thick lifevest and a whitewater kayaking helmet it should be safe enough. A hell of alot safer than the MotoX racing when I was younger, anyway.


The idea I'm toying with right now is building an aluminum frame and covering it with fabric, much like an ultralight's wings. I have attached a picture of a plane, "The Cloudchaser" owned a built by my friend Alan Lowery. You can't really see it in the pic, but that airfoil is about 10" thick, it almost looks like an inflatable. I hope to (with alot of Alan's help!) build my wig alot like the cloudchaser's wings are built.
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Rossco
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re: Wing In Ground-effect craft

Post by Rossco » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:59 am

Yes, OK, fair enough about the plane on the motor leg.
I suppose that, given enough speed, you can not only support your weight on your own bare feet, but have enough spare to balance as well (vauguely control direction, not saying that its easy either if theres any bare footers out there).
And, to add to my own failure in design, i admitt that the motor is also too high, allowing too much weight to be held by the back of the boat.

BUT, that said, (my) minimax has a tendancy, at speed, to suck the nose down. Up and down it will just touch the water, giving a shhhh shhhh shhh sound and sapping your speed. This is overcome by putting weight way back, it then picks up like kicking another gear. (even though i thought originaly that i was going to have to sit on the bow to stop it frop flipping!)

Now, thinking of a thrust driven boat, wouldnt this problem be compiled by the tangent of force being over the top of CG??????

Just one note to compare our minimax's. Mine does seem to have a bit of a dish (upward) to the hull toward the rear... probably causing this problem! But try as i might, i cant pull it out to be flat!~

Really there is one, very simple solution to my Minimax's problem (other than steering that is, thats just the "keelson" problem). That is to stick a bigger engine on it! Yes, it could do with the extra weight, as well as the power! Prop it up, and it would be truly scary! Before then, i promise to put proper steering in it, and follow some basic safety guidlines.

Bugger the Minimax! Its upset me. I got a bunch of ply... with such a learning curve im sure to come up with some more suitable test bed for the next one. So far, i cannot help but think prop driven combined lift/thrust similar to my above link? whadaya recon?

Rossco
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El-Kablooey
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re: Wing In Ground-effect craft

Post by El-Kablooey » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:27 am

HM......... My boat's bottom is almost flat in the rear 2/3. just slightly convex. High along the centerline and low at the gunwales (with boat upside down). There is no doubt that the design has lots of room for improvement though, no matter who built the boat. Maybe a rear spoiler mounted just above your engine would help with the nose wanting to drop?


Man I wish it was summertime. Winter just sucks.


I have plans for about 100 different boats, all in PDF and all from old Pop Mech's mags just like the Minimax. I'll send them to you if you like. There is one tunnel-hull boat I know you would love, even though it's from the '60s it looks very modern, alot like the design of the big drag boats that the hydrofoamy is modeled after. BTW, I've got the plans for the little hydrofoamy model, and the duct you see is just there for looks, it doesn't direct any air under the boat.


Oh yeah, try this next time you take your's out. Trim your outboard to where the top surface of the cavitation plate is even with the bottom surface of the boat. You'll see big performance changes just by trimming the engine up and down the tiniest bit. Set it up llike above, and then try adjusting it just a little, both up and down, and see what happens. That may solve your porpoising problem.

And what you were saying about area needed to ski on, One of the boat plans I have is for a fairly large 14' boat (i think 14') when travelling at 25mph it is supposed to ride on less than 12 square inches of the hull.
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