Home built ignition generator unit

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larry cottrill
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Re: Home built ignition generator unit

Post by larry cottrill » Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:49 am

Mark wrote:I was trying to capture a 3 inch long 100,000 volt spark scan setting this device atop my printer/scanner. For some odd reason the spark decided to arc over to my hand! What the heck is that? I was standing on a tile floor wearing sandals.
It didn't hurt so much as it was startling. I think I have inhaled enough ozone for the evening too. Too bad the spark discharge didn't capture when I tried to scan it. It hops all around and is very thin.
Mark
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 68940&rd=1
Tesla sparks are high frequency discharges. Anything with enough electrical "mass" can act as a ground. With my big coil, we used to ground the bottom end to the house water lines and the top would fire off into the air in a zillion directions with lengths approaching a foot. It would jump 13 inches to a grounded pipe. Firing off its "corona" into the air, it would light a 4ft fluorescent tube held in your hand up to 20 ft away from the coil. You could safely draw the spark to your hand with a metal rod, although there was enough 60hz "modulation" in it to actually hurt quite a bit - if it was pure HF output, that wouldn't be the case, as it travels over the surface of your body, not through it. You could draw sparks right out through the porcelain insulator on top, though they wouldn't jump as far that way. I also built many smaller coils, some powered with vacuum tube oscillators, the smallest with Model T coils and capacitors.

It is very hard to predict where HVHFAC will go, and what it might damage, especially in these days of low-voltage digital circuits running everything. You're lucky you didn't end up ruining your scanner.

L Cottrill
Last edited by larry cottrill on Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nathan
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Re: Home built ignition generator unit

Post by Nathan » Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:57 am

Hey Steve. Got any stainless to start that 20lb Locky yet?

I'm still trying to finish parts procurement for my ignition circuit. I can definitely find an IRF 640. The problem I'm having is memory. Number 1 problem is that I can't remember the pin connections on the 640. I think the connections are G, D, S with the tab D. How does that hook up to the Ig Mol Gen diagram? Number 2 problem is that I can't for the life of me remember where I put all my "antique" books on transistors. Rats.

Since the 640 is a TO220 case do you think that for PJ ignition usage that the little clip-on heat sinks will be enough or do I need to mount it external to my (plastic) box on a more substantial sink?

I am almost decided on building a 55lb'er according Lockwoods specs. I want to experiment with a few ideas on liquid fuel injection and throttling so I really don't need an unproven design, yet. I really like the linear engines best for looks if nothing else, especially the big, fat, jumbo size. They look more like a jet engine "should" look instead of a large commercial sink drain or a truck exhaust system. Thanks.

Nathan

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Re: Home built ignition generator unit

Post by Mark » Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:28 pm

Larry Cottrill wrote:
Mark wrote:I was trying to capture a 3 inch long 100,000 volt spark scan setting this device atop my printer/scanner. For some odd reason the spark decided to arc over to my hand! What the heck is that? I was standing on a tile floor wearing sandals.
It didn't hurt so much as it was startling. I think I have inhaled enough ozone for the evening too. Too bad the spark discharge didn't capture when I tried to scan it. It hops all around and is very thin.
Mark

It is very hard to predict where HVHFAC will go, and what it might damage, especially in these days of low-voltage digital circuits running everything. You're lucky you didn't end up ruining your scanner.

L Cottrill
The thought did cross my mind. I thought if I spread the electrodes more than it could jump, some sort of internal arcing might occur too, inside the high voltage unit. Mark
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Re: Home built ignition generator unit

Post by Steve Tee » Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:17 pm

Howdy Nathan,

I hope to begin soon on the parts procurement for the 20lb Locky. Right now, I have a little project that's begging to be completed. It's a 30 foot, all weld, galve steel tower, with an 18 foot diameter wind turbine on top. Since it's summer here, you could say I am 'making hay while the sun shines' :) .
As winter makes it's unwelcome approach, the Locky will start to become a reality. That way, I can use it as a heater, while making a major quantity of noise hehehe. (evil laugh)

Yes, you have correctly remembered the pinouts of the IRF640. To help things along, I have included a pinout chart here.

Our mosfet connects to the circuit, thusably:
The 'G' terminal goes to the point where Q1 and Q2 drive the fet,
The 'D' terminal goes to the sparky coil,
The 'S' terminal goes to the zero volt supply rail.

If I understand correctly, you are still searching for NPN and PNP transistors?
Are there electronics stores near you?
Some of these sell collections of general purpose, silicon, transistors. They are as cheap as dirt, so you'll be able to get a swag of them for a few dollars. These are almost certain to work nicely in your circuit. When you get them, a search on the net will identify each one for its characteristics, polarity, and pinouts.
Generally, you should find that any general purpose trannies will do the job quite nicely :) .
A little clip on heat sink will surely add some time to the heating period of the mosfet.
When you mount the mosfet to the circuit board, you might like to bend it over and strap it down to the board, so as to make it less likely to break off, due to vibrations.

In order to enhance thermal efficiency still further, you could add a second IRF640.
You'd essentially be wiring these in parallel, S to S, D to D and G to G.
To make this work correctly, you'd need to add a 10 ohm resistor to the gate of each fet, and then connect those resistors to the junction at Q1 and Q2.

This will halve the current in each mosfet, and effectively reduce the dissipation to one quarter of its former value, as the forward voltage will be halved also.

So, instead of 6.48 watts, you'll have 1.62 watts in each mosfet. The heating effect will be quite small, and may allow you to avoid a heatsink.

But, before going down that track, try a single fet, without a heatsink, in open air.
Run the circuit for 5 seconds, stop and feel the fet for heat.
Run again for a longer period, stop and check again.

You may find that the fet's heating period is not going to be a problem after all :) .


Yes, those linear engines do look good, and their low profile makes them look like a good solution for jet karts too.

For a beginner, like me, anything would do, just to get a feel for the ways of these grand little power houses.
Valuable, experience is what we'll get when we build one of these noisy beggars.
Sure, our neighbours will all move away, but hey, we'll have a jet engine. Yippee :) .

Oh, I just can't wait to 'strap one on and light it up' hehe.
'He strapped it on, he lit it, he vanished from the surface of the earth..........'
"Hey, can you get me down from here - I seem to be stuck on the moon!"


Best wishes, and powerful ignition molecules.

Steve Tee.

Nathan wrote:Hey Steve. Got any stainless to start that 20lb Locky yet?

I'm still trying to finish parts procurement for my ignition circuit. I can definitely find an IRF 640. The problem I'm having is memory. Number 1 problem is that I can't remember the pin connections on the 640. I think the connections are G, D, S with the tab D. How does that hook up to the Ig Mol Gen diagram? Number 2 problem is that I can't for the life of me remember where I put all my "antique" books on transistors. Rats.

Since the 640 is a TO220 case do you think that for PJ ignition usage that the little clip-on heat sinks will be enough or do I need to mount it external to my (plastic) box on a more substantial sink?

I am almost decided on building a 55lb'er according Lockwoods specs. I want to experiment with a few ideas on liquid fuel injection and throttling so I really don't need an unproven design, yet. I really like the linear engines best for looks if nothing else, especially the big, fat, jumbo size. They look more like a jet engine "should" look instead of a large commercial sink drain or a truck exhaust system. Thanks.

Nathan
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Always be sure to 'strap it on' before you light it.

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Nathan
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Re: Home built ignition generator unit

Post by Nathan » Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:06 am

Hey Steve.

Thanks for the info. I think I've got enough to get it together now (finally). I've got everything but the 640 and I'm going to pick it up tomorrow. It's sure been a long time since I headscratched this much on a simple circuit. I guess it's true that if you don't use it you'll lose it, or at least it'll get awful rusty.
As winter makes it's unwelcome approach
That's kinda weird. You talk to folks so much on the web that you sometimes forget that they live on the opposite side of the Earth than you do (or on the lower side). I'm just now watching the buttercups start to bloom. They're always first and a sure harbinger of spring. They may yet get a little frost on them, or even a brief snow, but spring is on it's way. Our weather forcast for tommorrow (Southern Tennessee) is 70 degreesF and sunny. Thanks Lord.
In order to enhance thermal efficiency still further, you could add a second IRF640.
Very nice idea. I will only be using this for momentary ignition and probably won't need the second MOSFET, but I will file that idea with my diagram so that if I need to drive a transformer for an extended time I can without cooking the 640.
But, before going down that track, try a single fet, without a heatsink, in open air.
I will, remembering your warning to not touch the FET while juice is coursing through it's little wire veins.
Thanks again. I'm going to get this going and I'll post back to this thread when I do.

Nathan

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Re: Home built ignition generator unit

Post by Steve Tee » Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:16 am

Howdy Nathan,

Hehe, I am sure you'll be scraping the rust off very soon.
Indeed, you can use a steady stream of sparks to melt your rusty spots.

Winter is already starting to make itself felt here. The nights have a slight chill that was not there before, and a little fog is starting to show up.
I am hoping that winter will hold off a little longer, so I can get my 30 foot tower completed and raised into the sky.

Here's hoping that you'll have your 'spark-o-tron' working soon. I look forward to seeing those new born Ignition Molecules shooting from the end of the fire wire.


Best wishes and powerful pulse packers,

Steve Tee.






Nathan wrote:Hey Steve.

Thanks for the info. I think I've got enough to get it together now (finally). I've got everything but the 640 and I'm going to pick it up tomorrow. It's sure been a long time since I headscratched this much on a simple circuit. I guess it's true that if you don't use it you'll lose it, or at least it'll get awful rusty.
As winter makes it's unwelcome approach
That's kinda weird. You talk to folks so much on the web that you sometimes forget that they live on the opposite side of the Earth than you do (or on the lower side). I'm just now watching the buttercups start to bloom. They're always first and a sure harbinger of spring. They may yet get a little frost on them, or even a brief snow, but spring is on it's way. Our weather forcast for tommorrow (Southern Tennessee) is 70 degreesF and sunny. Thanks Lord.
In order to enhance thermal efficiency still further, you could add a second IRF640.
Very nice idea. I will only be using this for momentary ignition and probably won't need the second MOSFET, but I will file that idea with my diagram so that if I need to drive a transformer for an extended time I can without cooking the 640.
But, before going down that track, try a single fet, without a heatsink, in open air.
I will, remembering your warning to not touch the FET while juice is coursing through it's little wire veins.
Thanks again. I'm going to get this going and I'll post back to this thread when I do.

Nathan
Always be sure to 'strap it on' before you light it.

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Dang911
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re: Home built ignition generator unit

Post by Dang911 » Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:53 pm

Hi Steve,

I am 17 years old and am in the process of building a pule jet. The only think holding me up was how to ignite it. Well I saw your solution and decided to build it. After building it I tested it out and was very pleased as I had similar results to yours. Here is my problem.

I only ran the thing in 2-5 second pulses about 15 times total, after that the unit stopped rectifying pulses and only gave me a pulse each time I connected the battery, instead of 200 per second. Doing that 5 times to see if it was just a bad connection, the thing stopped all together :cry:

I had the thing setup just like yours, adding in, its own grounded metal box. I used it with a 5 amp fuse (fast blow). Note: I didn't spark the circuit's grounded metal box housing, I'm not that stupid.

I know absolutely nothing when it comes to electricity, just know how to follow a schematic. I did blow 1 fusses due to an incorrect terminal connection, and after that, to be sure, I replaced the 555. After the 555, can you tell me what else might need to be swapped out to make this unit functional again. I did feel some heat on the 2 capacitors next to the 555, but nothing burned/smoked/crackled/popped!!!

Now every time I replace the fuse and juice it up, I blow a fuse instantly, this obviously means a short, but I have looked my connections over and they all appear to be fine. Could a burned out component be shorting thing out?

My finial concern is how robust this unit is, considering I got about a minuet out of mine. Do you think it could be left on for an hour straight?

I appreciate any feedback you can give me as I need all the help I can get when it comes to electricity.

Sincerely,
Greg
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re: Home built ignition generator unit

Post by Dang911 » Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:56 pm

Is anything wrong|?
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re: Home built ignition generator unit

Post by Steve Tee » Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:19 am

Howdy Greg,

Your construction is very neat indeed, so I don't feel that you have made any serious errors.

Considering that the unit functioned, without becoming hot and smelly, means that you have built it well.
That stated, it does seem a little odd that the capacitors near the 555 became warm in the short time that you were operating the unit.
Can you have a closer look at these, to ensure correct polarity?
If reversed, they will become hot, and finally explode - which can be quite embarrassing :) .


Looking more closely at the pictures, I think I see a possible problem.
The body of the Mosfet is bolted to the metal cabinet, apparently without an insulation kit.
This will be a problem if the Mosfet in your circuit has a metal back on it. Some have a plastic back, but the metal backed ones are internally connected to the 'Drain' lead of the Mosfet.

If the Mosfet's body has been so shorted, the fuse is likely to blow.
Further, you'll get one spark each time you disconnect the battery from the circuit, as the coil will be effectively tied directly across the battery - which may pop the fuse.
This condition is harmless to the remainder of the electronics, so the 555 and the other parts should be perfectly safe.

Try unbolting the Mosfet, and bending it slightly away from the box.
Power up the circuit, with and without the ignition coil added.

Without the ignition coil, the DC current draw will be very small.
Placing an AM radio next to the board, should reveal a slight interference, at some points along the AM band.
This will help reveal that the electronics are working at their nominal 200Hz.


With the coil added, the 200Hz should be audible as a buzz in the coil body.
As long as the sparks don't return to the metal cabinet, you can safely run the circuit with the lid off, and the circuitry exposed.


Regarding robustness:
The 'power house' of the circuit is the Mosfet. The larger ones, such as the IRFP264 that I used, will handle this sort of treatment indefinitely.
In the example that appears here, and on my website, the Mosfet is not attached to a heatsink, yet it remains at room temperature.
Smaller ones, like the IRF630, will become warm and should be mounted on a heatsink, like you have done.

The circuit that I built, has run for over 24Hours continuously. I did this in an attempt to discover its weaknesses, before posting my design.
Indeed, the only parts that became hot, were the coil and the spark gaps :) .
It takes a long time for the coil to get hot, so you may never notice it during normal use.


Once you have ironed out this little problem, you'll have a long lasting and reliable 'Jet Zapper'.


Please do keep in touch, and we'll have you sparking up in no time :D


Best wishes,

Steve.
Always be sure to 'strap it on' before you light it.

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re: Home built ignition generator unit

Post by Dang911 » Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:18 pm

Wonderful information, thanks!!!!

I will try and replace my mosfet, ::damn:: Those things aren't cheap, luckily I bought 2, 3 of everything, because I know stuff like this ALWAYS happens.

The mosfet I used was quite robust like yours #A40N25 http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/FQ/FQA40N25.pdf (info sheet)

It does have a metal back, however, I used a thermal conductive, electrical insulator, (little amber sheet) which should have prevented what you said, in any case I will replace it. In the future, is there any way a simple man like me can test a mosfet, using a VERY simple multimeter?

Something else that could have gone wrong now that I think about it. I was sparking a metal plate about 1 foot from my circuit, which like the plate, is also sitting on my garage concrete floor. Well I live in Florida, so its always humid, could a spark ground into the concrete and up into the electrical circuit housing one foot away, if so what damage are we looking at? I will now put a piece of polystyrene, or phenolic to insolate the metal box.


For everyone out there looking for all of these parts, and millions more (literally) I would just like to say..........

www.mouser.com

They are for me, the largest online electronics supplier world wide, and they ship everywhere. They have EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!

Thanks again, I truly appreciate you giving such help, and all the research you put forth to really fool proof this circuit, before telling people to build it.

Greg

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re: Home built ignition generator unit

Post by Dang911 » Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:01 pm

Sorry to double post, but I have some more important info.

After writing the last post, I went and changed the mosfet. While doing that there was a point where the diode was totally disconnected from everything. What a perfect time to test it, I had always had a slight suspect, that would be the short problem, but in my vision, how can the diodes go bad. Well it turns out the damn diode was totally CLOSED on both sides. WTF is that diode going to do!!! (that explains my burning fuses) I replaced that, and since I had a spare mosfet, I popped that in too. Here is what I got:

When I powered up, it gave me results, but poor. At first (2 times) I would get a couple of rectifying pulses for maybe 1.5 seconds, then it would stop, and to get more I would have to disconnect, then reconnect.

Then it turned into its old self, with one spark, per touch of the battery. Something isn't right here. At least I'm not burning fuses now. So my new problem is:

Why am I not getting continuous rectifying sparks!!!~?

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re: Home built ignition generator unit

Post by El-Kablooey » Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:06 pm

I'm guessing it's the capacitor on your 555.......... try replacing it, using a ceramic, or poly cap.. about .01uf.. also I can't see the resistor on pin #3, but make sure it's around 200 ohm, not 100 like some shematics suggest... you might try adding 10k pots to your resistors between pins 8 & 7 & 6 (I think, been a while) this will give you some control of frequency and pulse-width, allowing you to tune it to optimum for your coil.....
On an endless quest in search of a better way.

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re: Home built ignition generator unit

Post by El-Kablooey » Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:54 am

Oh yeah, also be sure you attach the .5 uf metal can capacitor (that came with your coil) between the coils primary leads!!!
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re: Home built ignition generator unit

Post by Steve Tee » Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:25 am

Howdy Greg,

The Mosfet you selected, appears to be a good choice.
Purchasing more than one of every part is always a good idea.I was reminded of this when I blew mine up when I accidentally used my body to transfer the spark energy directly into the electronics.
This was both painful, and quite annoying :shock: .

You can use a multimeter to inspect the Mosfet.
First, short the Gate to the Source lead. Measure ohms between Source and Drain.
You may have to reverse the polarity of your ohm meter connections to the Source and Drain, to get the expected results.

In one direction, you may get a reading that looks much like that of an ordinary diode.
In the other direction, the Mosfet's electrical resistance should appear to be infinitely high.

Failure to obtain this result, suggests that the fet is internally shorted.

Another method for testing the fet:
Ground the Source lead,
Connect one side of a 3 to 6 watt 12V lamp to the Drain lead,
Connect the other side of the lamp to a 12V DC supply.
Touch the positive supply rail of the 12V supply,
While in contact with the 12V rail, touch the Mosfet's Gate pin.
The lamp will light.

Keep your finger on the Gate, and move your other hand to the Negative rail of the 12V supply,
The lamp will go out.

This is a simple and effective way to rapidly test Mosfets like these.


Now, you may go a little further, and test the 555 and its associated parts with the Voltmeter.
Power the circuit up - without the coil attached,
Measure the DC level between Ground and pin 8,
You should see a figure that is pretty close to 12V,
If this figure is too low, check orientation of C3 - reversal of C3 will cause problems,
Now measure from Ground to pin 3.
The figure you get should be 2/3 of the first figure - approximately 8 volts,
Measure between Ground and the Gate of the Mosfet, the figure should be very similar to that of pin 3.

The above tests will show if the 555 is receiving power and oscillating at the correct 'mark space ratio'.
Also, it will help you determine if Q1 and Q2 are passing the signal onto Q3.


Here in NZ, I have discovered that concrete does conduct to a fair degree.
At 20,000 to 30,000 volts, you'll see that the sparks will tend to jump into the concrete and dissipate their energy there.
As long as the coil's body is electrically earthed, like the metal box is, there should be no real problem.
That stated, I don't recommend letting spark energy flow towards the metal cabinet in this manner.

Ideally, you don't want the sparks to leave the local electrical environment of the coil.
In normal use, your sparks should flow from the centre of the coil, to one of its 12V terminals.
Insulated, high tension leads would then carry the spark energy to your jet engine.

As long as you don't send sparks flying off in all other directions, your circuit will be completely unharmed.


Your latest findings are interesting, and tend to suggest progressive failure of the DC voltage supplying the 555.
You mentioned heat buildup in the capacitors around the 555.
Does this still occur when the circuit is powered up without the coil?
If so, is it a rapid heat buildup?

Perhaps a few close up pics will help me to spot the problem.

Oh, by the way, is there a 100nF capacitor between Ground and pin 5 on the 555?
This is important, as it prevents electrical noise from entering the IC.


Best wishes,

Steve.
Always be sure to 'strap it on' before you light it.

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re: Home built ignition generator unit

Post by Dang911 » Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:32 pm

I only felt the heat buildup when the circuit was brand new and working 100%. After the thing stopped fully rectifying sparks (2min) and break down into its current condition the capacitors have never heated up again. I consistently observe them but have found they are fine. (doesn't mean they are good internally) I think I am going to just go ahead and replace them. I'm pretty sure that's where my problem exists.

As for the battery I am using, Sealed lead acid, 12v, 8ah?

Yes there is a 100nf off of the 555.

For El-Kablooey's comments, What can capacitor might you be talking about, I never got one of those with my ignition coil, which I bought brand new in a box :o

Lastly I would be happy to give you more detailed pictures but I don't really want to flood the forum with them, you can give me your e-mail by e-mailing me at Dang911@aol.com

Thanks,
Greg

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