My TwinTurbo Jet Engine

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Ash Powers
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My TwinTurbo Jet Engine

Post by Ash Powers » Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:19 am

Been working on this for a few weeks now - built from two Nissan 300ZX (Z32) turbochargers and features a 'cross-flowing' design where one compressor feeds the combustion chamber for the other turbo's turbine - and vice-versa for the other turbocharger/combustor. It is a self-balancing system of which allows two turbochargers to be coupled together and work in a self-stabilized syncrony. I have recently moved to FL and this project has been put on hold, but the afterburner section needs a little work (to include some gussets to stabilize the flame) and hopefully I can get on that shortly. Here are some pics of her:

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With the current setup we have been able to achieve 25psi of compressor pressure which is pretty much the upper-limit of these turbochargers (I wasn't aware that they could even produce this kind of pressure). It is currently running on LPG but I would like to finalize the design with running it on kerosene. I have a 300ZX fuel pump (for EFI - can make a good 100psi or so max) and means to control pressure, but not sure if this is sufficient for the application, nor can I figure out where you guys are getting your liquid fuel injector nozzles from! Any recommendations for converting this engine over to liquid fuel would be much appreciated!

Mike Everman
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Re: My TwinTurbo Jet Engine

Post by Mike Everman » Sat Sep 04, 2004 3:36 pm

Very beautiful work, Ash. I am more in to the valveless jets, but appreciate well implemented engineering. Welcome to the forum!

Some of us use misting nozzles from a company called Bete(.com), they have SS versions of all products. Diesel engine fuel injectors and various carburetor jets are worth looking at, too.
Mike Often wrong, never unsure.
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NanoSoft
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Re: My TwinTurbo Jet Engine

Post by NanoSoft » Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:15 pm

That is definitely the nicest turbo engin i have seen. To regulate fuel flow you can use a ball valve that is very small or a needle valve. Both work fairly well. For injectors i recomend oil burner nozzles. They give a very nice mist thats easy to ignite at low (10PSI) and higher (150PSI) pressures. Another source for nozzle is some farm stores. They sometimes have nozzles for sprayers that work fairly well too.

Seeing how you have two combustion chambers and two turbos all working in a circle. It will be a lot easier if you first start it on propane then switch it over to liquid. The reason is because diesel doesn't ignite very well unless it has a good mist and there is already a fire. Sparks don't work well unless the mixture is compressed like in trucks. Hope this helps.

Nanosoft

PS. How big are the inducers on your turbos and where did you get the design for the flame tube. It apears to have a lot more hole area then in most others.

Ash Powers
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Re: My TwinTurbo Jet Engine

Post by Ash Powers » Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:50 pm

NanoSoft wrote:That is definitely the nicest turbo engin i have seen. To regulate fuel flow you can use a ball valve that is very small or a needle valve. Both work fairly well. For injectors i recomend oil burner nozzles. They give a very nice mist thats easy to ignite at low (10PSI) and higher (150PSI) pressures. Another source for nozzle is some farm stores. They sometimes have nozzles for sprayers that work fairly well too.

Seeing how you have two combustion chambers and two turbos all working in a circle. It will be a lot easier if you first start it on propane then switch it over to liquid. The reason is because diesel doesn't ignite very well unless it has a good mist and there is already a fire. Sparks don't work well unless the mixture is compressed like in trucks. Hope this helps.

Nanosoft

PS. How big are the inducers on your turbos and where did you get the design for the flame tube. It apears to have a lot more hole area then in most others.
I was planning to maintain use of LPG for startup purposes as it seems pretty necessary in order to get any liquid fuel to produce enough vapor pressure to begin combustion.

The inducers of these turbochargers is around 1.5" or so. The flame tube is 2.5" and the main combustor body is 4". Within the combustion chamber there is a liner to shield the flame-tube from the inlet air blast (as I was producing flame-out in initial testing and carbon deposits on half of the flame tube inner wall were indicative of a heavy rich condition caused by an imbalance of pressures inpinging on the flame tube).

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THe flame-tube was just a shot in the dark. I have been noting excessive EGTs at around 15psi of combustor pressure and the instance that I turned the LPG tank upside-down and achieved a smooth 25psi for about 30 seconds I did not note the EGTs. It is fully possible that at these higher pressures the flame front is pushed back up into the flame-tube and the dilution air gets a chance to cool things off a bit.. *shrug* All I know is that I ran it for an amazing 30 seconds or so at 25psi and the whole rig was rocking forward and trying to move across the garage floor.. The best part was the fact that neither turbine burned up (which I have done before) so the EGTs must not have been too excessive. I will have to bring her back up to this level and note the EGTs to see if this flame-tube design is working properly.

I have seen a lot of mention that the flame-tube hole cross-sectional area should be closely matched to the inducer area of the compressor wheel, but I haven't seen any theoretical explanation as to why this is the desired geometry.. I'm more of a 'why' does it work kind of guy I guess..

I have also seen that a lot of people look for turbochargers with very high A/R ratios on the turbine housings for producing a lot of thrust. My question on this is: if you have a turbo-jet engine with a low A/R turbine housing AND with an afterburner unit installed, it seems the smaller housing is the most desired since a low A/R is going to create a larger degree of backpressure on the turbine which will hold more pressure in the combustion chamber. When the A/B is fired up, it expresses a backpressure on the turbine which causes it to slow (since the pressure differential before and after the turbine has now been lessened). By having a smaller A/R on the turbine it will experience less 'downspooling' when the AB is enabled and should maintain a higher flow of air through the engine. If anyone out there can confirm this or rip it to shreds, either way, I will be highly appreciative! :) It just doesn't seem to me that backpressure from the tighter turbine housing should cause the engine to necessarily put out less thrust IF and ONLY IF you are using an afterburner to augment the pressure differential on the turbine - then it simply comes down to how much airmass can you get the compressor to move. *shrug*

BTW, these turbos have a .63A/R turbine housing..

steve
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Re: My TwinTurbo Jet Engine

Post by steve » Sun Sep 05, 2004 12:00 am

This has got to be one of the most interesting turbine layouts ive ever seen, and your construction appears to be top notch!

Ive got an idea for your next project (hehe):
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multi turbine.JPG
many turbos; not for the faint of heart (or wallet)
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NanoSoft
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Re: My TwinTurbo Jet Engine

Post by NanoSoft » Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:11 am

Ash. First off if possible i would like to know how much thrust is being produced. Second, Your theory seems to make since but i really don't have a clue. My turbo has a 3 inch inducer and has a very high A/R ratio. It designed to pump 35 PSI boost. I also noticed that your flame tubes seem a little on the small side. Did you just guess the dims. I recommend after you take the thrust measurement of your current setup and you have more free time you replace the flame tubes and compare the thrust levels. Goto this yahoo group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DIYGasTurbines/)and then goto the file section and then download the jetspecs program. It will calculate the dims of a flame tube based on the size of the inducer. It has worked for my and many other people plus it has math behind it and not just guess.

Hope you the best of luck with your project. Are you planning to hook this up to a go-kart?

Nanosoft

Ash Powers
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Re: My TwinTurbo Jet Engine

Post by Ash Powers » Sun Sep 05, 2004 6:44 pm

NanoSoft wrote:Ash. First off if possible i would like to know how much thrust is being produced. Second, Your theory seems to make since but i really don't have a clue. My turbo has a 3 inch inducer and has a very high A/R ratio. It designed to pump 35 PSI boost. I also noticed that your flame tubes seem a little on the small side. Did you just guess the dims. I recommend after you take the thrust measurement of your current setup and you have more free time you replace the flame tubes and compare the thrust levels. Goto this yahoo group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DIYGasTurbines/)and then goto the file section and then download the jetspecs program. It will calculate the dims of a flame tube based on the size of the inducer. It has worked for my and many other people plus it has math behind it and not just guess.

Hope you the best of luck with your project. Are you planning to hook this up to a go-kart?

Nanosoft
No idea, really. I know these compressors can flow around 25#/min of air each, which puts the setup to ~50#/min total. What I have typically seen is a conversion of about 1# of thrust per #/min of airflow, so that should put it around 50# of thrust in an ideal, optimized configuration, of which I am sure there are discrepencies in this design.

With the addition of the AB in full-performance, I am hoping to yield about 50# of thrust total - this is my goal. I have plans to build an 'adult sized' Hot-Wheels (with full fiberglass body to make the tubeframe design I have look realistic) and plant this engine on the back of it. I weigh in at about 150# and the engine+hotwheels+ancillaries ~=250# at most.

Out here in Edgewater we are about 5 minutes from the beach - this would be a really fun toy to take to the beach at low-tide, close to sundown when there is nobody around, and fire this puppy up to make some high-speed runs down the flat-and-level beachhead.

I have been considering just building another engine using some larger higher-flowing turbochargers, still in this twinturbo type setup. This prototype was mainly constructed to see if the design would even work, which it does, and exceptionally well I might add. But the thrust is still a big question and I would rather get everything running right before I start trying to tip the scales harder - that mentality usually leads to breaking things rather than making them better.

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