Original Gluhareff Engines / We have 2

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Mark
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re: Original Gluhareff Engines / We have 2

Post by Mark » Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:56 am

Ok, now I see with the graphs that the jet is averaging ~25% less than expected, knocking out the peaks and valleys. I wonder if getting it up to speed would increase thrust or not? I remember the Lockwood folks saying their U-bend Lockwood increased thrust as it was carried on a vehicle at ~90 mph on a car on a runway, they attributed the increase in thrust to better aspiration or less re-ingestion of hot gases was it?
Mark
Last edited by Mark on Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Viv
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Re: re: Original Gluhareff Engines / We have 2

Post by Viv » Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:09 am

hagent wrote:
Mark wrote:Then the 20 pound engine measured 19.5 pounds of thrust and after warm-up made 17 pounds of thrust or so if I read all this right.
Does this mean that the engine is not quite tuned/designed to running at operating temperatures?

Thanks,
Basically yes:-)

It means the hot acoustics are not right, every thing will heat up to a steady state value, this means the dimensions of all the parts have to be sized according to their hot length after heat expansion and temperature of the gas/air/combustion products they contain, this varies across the engine from nose to tail and inlet stacks and just to make it interesting from one part of the cycle to the next as flows reverse and temperatures alter.

This applies to all pulse jet engines but as we plot not only real time thrust but plot thrust over time on a strip chart we see the thrust alter during the warm up period through to when the engine reaches a steady state temperature.

I should also point out the lower graph on the bottom right is an FFT of the thrust signal in real time showing the major frequency thrust is produced at, this also drifts over the warm up period untill the engine settles at its running temperature distribution.

The pressure trace looks choppy as I cut back its sample time to a minimum to lower the CPU overhead as I have been adding to the DAS program, this ones on a slower device independant of the fast DAQ thrust signal so it has no impact on the readings

Temperature signals are not connected for this test as this engine is not fitted with thermocouple take offs.

Viv

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Re: re: Original Gluhareff Engines / We have 2

Post by Viv » Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:17 am

Mark wrote:Ok, now I see with the graphs that the jet is averaging ~25% less than expected, knocking out the peaks and valleys. I wonder if getting it up to speed would increase thrust or not? I remembe the Lockwood folks saying their U-bend Lockwood increased thrust as it was carried on a vehicle at ~90 mph on a car on a runway, they attributed the increase in thrust to better aspiration or less re-ingestion of hot gases was it?
Mark
Yes as you can see Mark we can look at the minimum and maximum thrust on the strip chart or the average continuos thrust on the bar meter directly below the chart, this is why I had such a laugh over people trying to tell me it was the wrong way to do it;-)

The thrust figures for this engine are quoted as static! so thats 20 Lbs on a none moving thrust stand to be absolutly clear, it is claimed to increase with ram air effects.

Yes I read the same reports for the Lockwood and one day will rig an engine up on our truck stand and repeat them, we have a good demo stand goes on the truck and it would not be too hard to figure out how to get thrust readings on the move.

Viv

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re: Original Gluhareff Engines / We have 2

Post by larry cottrill » Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:41 am

Viv and Luc -

That little movie took a LONG time to download thru our modem here at home - but it was well worth it! Amazing to see one of the originals actually running "full grease" after all the talk, hype, arguments, etc. have come and gone. That really looks like a nice little powerplant, very compact and friendly, if you ignore the obnoxious appendage hanging off the side (which of course makes it work).

Gentlemen, thanks for sharing this, and for your efforts to separate the myths from realities concerning these motors. That is quite a coup, getting your hands on a couple that Gluhareff probably made with his own hands!

L Cottrill

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Re: re: Original Gluhareff Engines / We have 2

Post by luc » Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:52 pm

Larry Cottrill wrote:Viv and Luc -

That little movie took a LONG time to download thru our modem here at home - but it was well worth it! Amazing to see one of the originals actually running "full grease" after all the talk, hype, arguments, etc. have come and gone. That really looks like a nice little powerplant, very compact and friendly, if you ignore the obnoxious appendage hanging off the side (which of course makes it work).

Gentlemen, thanks for sharing this, and for your efforts to separate the myths from realities concerning these motors. That is quite a coup, getting your hands on a couple that Gluhareff probably made with his own hands!

L Cottrill
Exactly Larry,

Through time and as you have noticed, we went through alot of efforts, arguments and critisisims from many, as we posted affirmations on the fact the we sespected Eugene's stand to be inadequate and his engines to have the same inherent problems as we know these engines have.

It would have been very wrong from us to do such affirmations if we didn't have fully operational engines here, but it is not the case.

So, the only other alternative for us to demonstrate we were correct, was to get our hand on actual Eugene Gluhareff engines and proove our allegations, which we did and to some expenses I have to admit.

A 1-1/2 ago, we almost got our hand on some of those engines but the deal fell off as we (Especially Viv) smelled that we were getting into a context of industrial spying that could even jeopordize our patent applications.

But all this is over now ... We have our engines, which exceed specifications and we have Eugene's engines, which do not meet specifications and no one can argue this now.

Now that we have gone to all extend to bring the truth to the public, if one wishes to persue arguing, he will then be invited to come over here (At its own expenses) carry out himself the test he want.

Again and again and again ... It is imperative to underline that under no consideration we want to discredit Eugene's work, for this guy was a genius doing what he did, probably only using a pen and a note pad. It took us years, thousand off $$$ and liters and computers to sort this out. We are just continuing his work.

The positive point with all this is that 6 years ago, when I first got on this forum, the only thing I could read on pressure jets was "Pressure jets were hudge fuel ungry blow torch" and today, 6 years later, we have them running good, sorted out and exceed specifications ... And we have pushed this engine to a new generation ... Now, if this is not positive developpement, I don't know what it is then.

So, the next step will be to run Eugene's engine #2, then we will run and plot our 20 lbs. engine so you guys will be able to compare and come to your own conclusions.

But don't get us wrong with all this. We are not doing this for the recreational market, for this market has no value to us.

We are doing this for the plain truth ..... Period.
Hooo .... I forgot .... And shut a few Big mouths around here.

Regards,

Luc

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re: Original Gluhareff Engines / We have 2

Post by luc » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:26 pm

Okeyyy ...

Here are the test results for Eugene's 20 lbs. oval intake engine #2.

As you will see with the DAS plot graphic, this engine run a little bit better then engine #1, but nothing way above 20 lbs of thrust an nothing close to our 20 lbs. (35 lbs.) engine.

The DAS plot shows an average of 18.7 lbs. of thrust for a fuel pressure of 149 psig. and we can see a few peak going above the 20 lbs. mark.

Strangly, this engine accidently incorporate one of our modifications and why do I say "Accidently" is simple, because this engine had an accident and this accident make it so it incorporates the equivalent of one of our modifications. This probably why this engine runs better and gives a few peak above the 20 lbs. mark.

Please see the following pictures and movie.

Next step will be to plot our 20 lbs. (35 lbs. Actually) engine for comparison.

Regards,

Luc
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Viv
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re: Original Gluhareff Engines / We have 2

Post by Viv » Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:55 pm

Got to love that first picture:-) you cant accuse us of babying these engines! on the stand and thrash the hell out of them to see what they will do:-)

A good ten minute run at full power to get them to full operating temperature and log all the data for the run to see what the averages are.

Interesting if we take a moment to think back to the myth first put up in the old forum regards weather these engines are stationary ram jets or pulse jets, the argument was if you built them right they would not resonate and would produce continuous power.

Further it was argued that resonance was the last thing you wanted in these engines?

As you can see from the thrust graph power is not steady and from the FFT display below the average thrust bar meter you can see the thrust signal is at around 155 Hertz, an FFT of the engine sound signature places this engine at 159 Hertz so the two coincide nicely.

Also the test stand can not read steady thrust! it is a dynamic stand and will only read a dynamically changing thrust level.

Both these engines were built by Gluehareff not us, all we have done is take them out of the shipping crate, check them over then mount them on an adapter plate to go on our stand.

No changes, modifications or tuning were done, as I say we just mounted them and ran them on the stand and took a video and some pics for your enjoyment.

Back too the first picture, the name was written by Luc in chalk and shows up really well on the red hot combustion chamber, have to remember that trick:-)

Viv
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Dave
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re: Original Gluhareff Engines / We have 2

Post by Dave » Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:55 pm

Luc and Viv

It is good to see that some of these myths finally put to rest through hard work and science. Along with the elimination of myths comes confirmation of several things:

First is that Gene had amazing insights and applied those in a unique approach to pulse jet design. He also had to have an almost inexhaustible amount of energy and commitment to stick with it for most of his adult live. It would be interesting to know just how many designs, prototypes and tests he must have undertaken in his lifetime.

Second is that you two must be almost as driven as he was. You have already invested years in researching the available information, have applied science to gain insights into his designs and then tested relentlessly to validate your theories.

Next is that you used those proven theories to take the Pressure Jet concept to another level. Gene was able to do amazing things with his instincts, paper, a slide rule and a lot of sheet metal. Through your continued efforts it has already been shown that the basic design can be refined to produce almost double the amount of thrust Gene was able to achieve.

I look forward to seeing what more your tag team can do with modern tools, an improved understanding of the forces involved and the fresh ideas and energy to drive innovation.

Dave

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re: Original Gluhareff Engines / We have 2

Post by luc » Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:28 pm

Exactly Dave,

We are comitted as he was before, for we beleive this engine will lead to something which will have alot of peoples realized they probably lost most of their time running after ghosts, while we aimed at a real potential engine.

Now ... Here is the rap-up of our study.

We installed OUR 2nd generation 20 lbs. engine on our stand, did a quick run under DAS supervision and ploted the results for you guys to review. Note that our fuel pressure is a bite low considering we now have bitting cold here and I did not want to waist nitrogen for the sake of a 30 second run. Still, our engine delivers a steady 26 Lbs. and peaks are hitting the 30 lbs. mark.

To us now ... All issues such as :
- Did Eugene had problems?
- Did he had an accurate test stand?
- Are the engines he built, according to the plans released?
- Was his engines running according to spec?

All these questions are now answered, as far as we are concerned and for us, this is where we end the line.

We have went to the extend of building engines, buying engines, put the efforts, the resources and the money to proove what we always said.

Now take it or leave it, we did what we had to do and we will not spend a single more minute arguing over other issues, for all these are now answered and thing of the past.

If one still decides to waist is time and money over 1st generation pressure jets plans or engines, either coming from Tip jet.com, R.Q. Riley, Vortech or others ...

Well let this idiot be one, for what we care.

Our job is done and over.

Regards,

Luc
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Mark
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re: Original Gluhareff Engines / We have 2

Post by Mark » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:15 am

I thought you'd at least have a few photos of Gene's and your engine pulling on a fish scale, just for the doubting Thomas's.
Mark
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Viv
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Re: re: Original Gluhareff Engines / We have 2

Post by Viv » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:46 am

Mark wrote:I thought you'd at least have a few photos of Gene's and your engine pulling on a fish scale, just for the doubting Thomas's.
Mark
Well the concrete block mass dampers are buried in a snow drift, our fish scale is electronic and as explained before is too slow for thrust measurments;-) we need a really crappy spring balance type one to be effective but the biggest problem is the toy truck I intended to use as the slider for the test rig as it has a nice set of wobbly wheels I cant get as my little girl wont lend it to us for the test;-(

Anyway Thomas or his friends are welcome to buy a ticket and fly up here and run their own tests.

Viv

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re: Original Gluhareff Engines / We have 2

Post by Rossco » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:41 am

Ha, Viv. Thats classic. My daughter wont lend me her stuff either for such a test!
I did sneek her fairy lamp out of her room just this weekend tho, just to use quickly as a rough voltage divider.
She caught me and i had to say that i was just putting a new bulb in it for her.

You guys are doing great. Very good of you to share this study with us all here. Cheers.

Ill have a cold beer with you both one day. Might have to be summer tho.

Rossco
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luc
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Re: re: Original Gluhareff Engines / We have 2

Post by luc » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:17 pm

Mark wrote:I thought you'd at least have a few photos of Gene's and your engine pulling on a fish scale, just for the doubting Thomas's.
Mark
Hi Mark,

No you will not see a fish scale reading as they are far from being accurate and secondly, we did not put close to $25K on a stand and DAS, to go "Back" using fish scales.

Cya,

Luc

Mark
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re: Original Gluhareff Engines / We have 2

Post by Mark » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:07 pm

Still, it would be interesting to see what kind of reading you get with a spring fish scale. And I still think you should divulge what kind of fancy scale you are using. It just seems too mysterious and we've all been so curious how it works. Just curious, just like an innocent child.
Mark
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Re: re: Original Gluhareff Engines / We have 2

Post by Viv » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:44 am

Mark wrote:Still, it would be interesting to see what kind of reading you get with a spring fish scale. And I still think you should divulge what kind of fancy scale you are using. It just seems too mysterious and we've all been so curious how it works. Just curious, just like an innocent child.
Mark
Fancy scale? I think in previous threads I went in to detail about how it was done Mark

Viv

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