Gluhareff 130R power failure issue still open ... Any Idear?

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luc
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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Fri Mar 05, 2004 1:50 pm

Hi guys,

Heyyy ... Patrick,
hi LUC .

i finaly find what you have ask me today ..hahahaha
3 long hours of looking for .....
a lot of virus too grrrr but everything is ok now , i have scaned the file 2 time with 2 diférent antivirus , and the file look clean . lollllll
i send it to you by e-mail , hope this work this time ... i'm trying for the 3 rd time ....
PATRICK ..
Good Boy ...Patrick, I will wait for the files ... Thanks.

Dave,
And yes, when all the kinks are worked out and you make a 2004 version of the plans, I would love to have a shiny new set for my very own. Between now and then just let me know what I can do to keep the process moving.
No problem Dave ... I soon as I have time to complet the drawings, I will make those available to all here. I just waiting for the engine to finally get fixed and fully operationnal and then, I will put all this on a single document (With drawings) and spread that document over the entire planet like a damn virus ... He he he.

Mike,
Luc,
I paid for the HyperPhysics CD on the site, and it arrived a few days later. I think it a good thing to support Dr. Nave's work. It's an amazing thing, and making it entirely available on the web like that is admirable.
I real don't mind buying the CD ... But internal regulation within this buisnnes require that I get at least one transaction confirmation from the other end. Not long ago, we purchased a software from the Net, paid $102.00 US by money transfer and lost it for ever without ever receiving the software. You can imaging that my boos won't be fooled a second time. The only thing I wan't to a reply from him. How can I send the money order If I don't know were to send it.

One thing we can do ... Is for you to send me a copy of the CD. Croos my heart, I will send the money to you and you can send it to him, or if you send me a copy, at the same time, send me the address to send the money. My boss has already agreed on the pruchase ... The guys is simply not replying to us.
Kenneth says he's attempting to make all former threads available once again. I suggest though that you highlight, copy and paste all pages into word. It looks exactly the same. I wish I'd done it to some of my early threads, I vow to do it when Ken gets it back up.
I wouls appreciate if I could also, get a copy of that archive. Later on, when this quest will be over, I plan to make a CD, That will contain everything (i.e : Archives, drawings, Sound spectrum ... ect) of the 130R fully operationnal and make it available for everyone.

So ... Please ask Kenneth to make good backup of this forum threat.

Regards,

Luc

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Post by Mike Everman » Mon Mar 08, 2004 5:20 am

Luc, I'll consider playing middle-man for the the hyperphysics disk, but I have a more pressing recommendation for you guys. I don't know if you saw the exchange elsewhere in the forum, but here it is:

[quote="Dave"]Gentlemen

Your first post stated:

1. “Testing will resume in March, when we plan to measure the QD-80's TSFC and collect audio-video recordings of the operating engine for full analysis.â€
Mike
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luc
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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:56 pm

Good morning guys,

Okeyyyy ... In regards if mike's post.
Luc,
this bit about the proprietary nature of M.'s design is not ominous, and I believe that the design you would get from him to be the solution to the greater problem. I think you need to be going down dual paths at this point, and that your fabricators could make short work of the design he sends. You could spend a great deal more just trying to get "rated" thrust out of the 130R, and there are too many variables, too much going on. It may or may not be important to history that you flush out the bad information on the Gluey plans, but it sounds as if you need a success, and a valveless to M.'s design, for free (with a few disclosure restrictions) is a deal of great magnitude.
You've come here for advice, and this is mine: try the few ideas you have left on the Gluey, while in a parallel path, build a valveless that will do what you need.
Best regards,
First of all ... I would like to point out or assure you that no "Flush with the back of the hand" occured here, for the valveless pulsjet design. It was just an administrative descision. My boss what a patented application, with no string attached to it ...

Also, I have no arogance. Talk to Dave, Viv and other, how honest I am and they will tell you that my motivations are clean of any profit goal. Like I said in some previous posting, this forum is an exchange between all of us. What I (And my company) will gain, is a working application ... What all of use will gain (You, me and other jet user) is a fully operationnal pressurejet with no more secrets. I beleive my boss is also very generous, to authorize me in sharing all these test data and else. Like he said, and I quote" If one day I see a gokart running with a re-design pressurejet, I will be more then happy" end of quote.

Like said ... It is an exhange deal between the jet comunity and this company, and of coarse the pressurejet is of public domain and it will remain this way.

But let me talk like a buisness man here, for a few minutes. What I see here ... Is nothing more then someone who is very concerned. Ask your self 1 question ... What will happen when we will succeed in this quest ?
I will tell you what will happen ... All OTHER design ... Will become obsolete. I also know that a Patent Number is very expensive and I also can understand that it would be very frustrating ... To have a Patent, of something, that has become obsolete, because a bunch of brainiacs have completed Engene works and can now make, all pressurejet works.

What I hear here is ..."You don't need to go on ... I have the solution".

My question is ... Do I hear someone that want use to stop ? ... and WHY?

It is of our company opinion that the valveless pulsejet is a 1/2 patch solution, with many strings attached and it was the decison to go all the way, without any strings attached.

So, let resume work guys ... And thanks for you offer ... Milisavljevic, but no thanks.

Regards,

Luc

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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Mon Mar 08, 2004 3:56 pm

Hi again,

thinking again, I said to my self "Maybe some of the guys who are strong with pulsejet, did not read all the previous postings"

Okey... So I will say it again :

The reason that we are not and will not use a Pulsjet is simple. Pulset runs on propane vapor and what do you thing happen to a propane tank at -30 °C (-22 °F) ... No More Vapor, no more tank vaporation.

We tried it....Dave saw the engine ... We have a pulsjet here. And under cold temperature, these things are useless.

So why would I invest in some type of evaporator design for cold weather, when a pressurejet already has an internal évaporator.

And as for the inline valveless pulsjet, this thing is newly patented and we can't use it for commercial use.

So ... Let no forget this ... Very cold and Pulsejet or lockwood engines, don't work fine together.

Have a good day,

Luc

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Post by Raymond G » Mon Mar 08, 2004 4:47 pm

Hi Luc,
Have you run your tests in the Summertime? Your low jet temps got me thinking (I know, a dangerous thing). While I don't think this is THE problem, low tank temps can certainly be A problem. Low tank temps mean somewhat lower fuel jet velocity which means slighly misadjusted 1st stage tuning, which....carries through the whole engine. I doubt Gluey ever ran with a tank temp of lower than 50F, and you are running as low as -22 F. That is a drop of about 14% absolute(72R/510R=~.14), which sounds somewhat significant to me. He may have arrived at the number of turns of heat exchanger coil emperically that worked best for his environment, which would then be off for significantly different environments. Just a thought.

Regards,
Raymond

luc
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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:33 pm

Hi Guys ... Hi Raymond,

Raymond Asked
Hi Luc,
Have you run your tests in the Summertime? Your low jet temps got me thinking (I know, a dangerous thing). While I don't think this is THE problem, low tank temps can certainly be A problem. Low tank temps mean somewhat lower fuel jet velocity which means slighly misadjusted 1st stage tuning, which....carries through the whole engine. I doubt Gluey ever ran with a tank temp of lower than 50F, and you are running as low as -22 F. That is a drop of about 14% absolute(72R/510R=~.14), which sounds somewhat significant to me. He may have arrived at the number of turns of heat exchanger coil emperically that worked best for his environment, which would then be off for significantly different environments. Just a thought.
Yes Raymond, we ran during summer time but at that time, we had serious problems with our LoadCell set-up, but the values recorded then, never was close to the 130 lbs. expected. Also remember over a month ago, we ran the engine inside (@ 70 °F) but still had that poor 45 lbs. of thrust. Even if I beleive your right when you say that cold weather will somehow, reduce thrust. I don't beleive it will do it like we see here, more then 50% lost.

Okeyyy ... Good newssss.

I came out of a meeting this moring with my boss and have new budgets for the following :

First, 4 more thermocouples, 1 for each stage + 1 for the combustion chamber, which very expensive (0 to 4000 °F @ $1500.00). With this, I will be able to completely map the engine temperature span.

We are still waiting for the SST-321 x .020" thick and the new coils will be manufactured as per the Luc/Dave concept.

If we don't see improovement on the engine or nozzle temperature, well then, the exact Gluey material selection myth will be over.

I also have budget to pruchase a microphone (I am sure Dave can't come here all the time). So, on that matter, I need a recommendation of what would be the best microphone for that type of recording. Give me model numbers please or specifications.

Viv ... What I need from you or from other guys that have the sound tracks, is to tell me from were, meaning what location compare to the engine (i.e : Front, side rear, 4 feets, 5 10 20 ...) we have the best recording. What was the best position, so we will in the futur, alsways use the same position.

Also, I still have no answer from Dr. Ron Nave for the "Hyperphysics" software. We are ready to pay the $40.00 for the software but can't find anyone to pay it too and we tryed the online payment, using "Pall Pay" and it is not working from Canada ... Don't know why ?????
Can anyone help ?

Okey ... That enough for now.... I waiting for your replies...Guys.

Cya,

Luc

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Post by Mike Everman » Mon Mar 08, 2004 7:39 pm

Luc,
Don't mistake me, there was no disrespect intended. If you say it makes no business sense, that's good enough for me. Any way you slice it, fuel delivery at such a cold ambient is Problem Number One for either, and either can take liquid delivery. Certainly a valveless is not the "magic pill", and will have it's own set of issues, but it's my opinion that the issues would be limited more to fuel delivery.
Good luck, and keep up the good work. As you know, I've been enjoying your journey here with great interest. It's as close to a soap opera as I get!
Best regards,
Mike
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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:02 pm

Heyyy ... Mike,

No problems Bud,

My posting was not toward you. Your inputs are always of great values in this forum. What pinched me a bit is the "Turned with the back of his hand".

This forum is a big soup, were all put are knowledge in. Some idear are good and some are less good. Some stay and some goes, but all this is done considering the opinion of each one and no one get turn with the back of a hand.

The day I will be able to talk about the application, you guys will come to say ... "Now I understand why he could not use a Lockwood type engine"

As for the pulsejets, they have reed valves, which are sensitive and as for the inline valveless pulsejet, this engine has a brand new paten # on it, thus, strings attached.

For the Lockwood type engine, let just says that this engine has 2 thrust outlet, one stronger then the other. Our application requires that WE MUST have 1 powerfull jet stream. 2 outlet is a big No No. That why it was pushed aside.

Okey .... Back to the up-coming changes and test ... Guys, were are your answers to my questions ... He He He.

WAKE-UP ........ get up your beds ... Time to go back to the work table ... He he he.

Cya,

Luc

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Post by Raymond G » Mon Mar 08, 2004 9:00 pm

Luc wrote:
we ran during summer time but at that time, we had serious problems with our LoadCell set-up, but the values recorded then, never was close to the 130 lbs. expected. Also remember over a month ago, we ran the engine inside (@ 70 °F) but still had that poor 45 lbs. of thrust. Even if I beleive your right when you say that cold weather will somehow, reduce thrust. I don't beleive it will do it like we see here, more then 50% lost.
The indoor test is not relevent, as what I was getting at was the temp of your actual propane tank, which I assume is outside. Low fuel temp means low combustion temp, which causes a cascade effect throughout the whole system. If it accounts for even 10-20 lbf, then I believe this would be significant, because we have no knowledge as to wether the additional 50% thrust comes from a single problem or many, or if it is just a marketing gag (which I somehow still don't believe). Also, IIRC, you mentioned somewhere in the past that the highest thrust you ever achieved was around (110 lbf?). Can you eleaborate on all the test that result?

Meanwhile, I suspect and hope that the main problem is the improper induction tuning, and that your efforts with a variable length intake runner will prove fruitful. What is your timeframe for these tests?

Regards,
Raymond

P.S. Were you ever able to send that CD?

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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Mon Mar 08, 2004 9:43 pm

Hi again Raymond,

Yes I can elaborate on those test. It is simple, I am not really confident in those values, even if I saw them at the time. The thing is, we had serious problems with the LoadCell meter and blew 5 of them in a single years. Everytime we were ready to run, that damn meter would not work and every time it worked, it worked for 5 minutes, numbers were stranges, unstable and jumping. Then, the meter would blow-up again.

We foud out later that meters made by "Powers" don't realy like vibration and pressurejet. After the 5th one (All changed under waranty) we decide to forget the waranty and change the meter for an "Omega", with which we have no more problems.

As for your concerns about the temperature of the fuel it slef, for my last inside runs. Sorry to disapoint you bud, but it was a small forklift tank that was stabalized to the inside ambiant temp, before the run.

As for test time frame ... I am looking forward to complet those next week. SST-321 and the combustion chamber thermocouple is my longest lead time as for delivery.

I am also waiting for the guys to give some answers on what are the results of Dave, Patrick and I, recordings. I have to admit that I am a little bit surprised and concerned. My expectations were that after all the results, data and recording that was done, we would have more answer or results from the guys, but instead, it seems that the forum has slowed down ... I don't understand.

I am still waiting for Viv and Graham to post an official conclusion for the first recording run. Hopefully, it will come soon and before I get to the gate of the second run. I would hate going into the second recording and data acquision run, without knowing the results of the previous one.

Can you imagine, we burned over a 100 gallons of fuel this day, and everytime my boss ask me about the results ... I answer him ... "I am still waiting, but it seems..." Imagine is face when he heard ... "It seems..."

Will see ...

Come on guys, don't let me down on this .....

Cya,

Luc

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Re: 130R Power Failure

Post by Viv » Mon Mar 08, 2004 10:17 pm

Luc wrote:Hi again Raymond,

Yes I can elaborate on those test. It is simple, I am not really confident in those values, even if I saw them at the time. The thing is, we had serious problems with the LoadCell meter and blew 5 of them in a single years. Everytime we were ready to run, that damn meter would not work and every time it worked, it worked for 5 minutes, numbers were stranges, unstable and jumping. Then, the meter would blow-up again.

We foud out later that meters made by "Powers" don't realy like vibration and pressurejet. After the 5th one (All changed under waranty) we decide to forget the waranty and change the meter for an "Omega", with which we have no more problems.

As for your concerns about the temperature of the fuel it slef, for my last inside runs. Sorry to disapoint you bud, but it was a small forklift tank that was stabalized to the inside ambiant temp, before the run.

As for test time frame ... I am looking forward to complet those next week. SST-321 and the combustion chamber thermocouple is my longest lead time as for delivery.

I am also waiting for the guys to give some answers on what are the results of Dave, Patrick and I, recordings. I have to admit that I am a little bit surprised and concerned. My expectations were that after all the results, data and recording that was done, we would have more answer or results from the guys, but instead, it seems that the forum has slowed down ... I don't understand.

I am still waiting for Viv and Graham to post an official conclusion for the first recording run. Hopefully, it will come soon and before I get to the gate of the second run. I would hate going into the second recording and data acquision run, without knowing the results of the previous one.

Can you imagine, we burned over a 100 gallons of fuel this day, and everytime my boss ask me about the results ... I answer him ... "I am still waiting, but it seems..." Imagine is face when he heard ... "It seems..."

Will see ...

Come on guys, don't let me down on this .....

Cya,

Luc
Merde! tell the boss this is for free if he wants "now" he can pay me and I will fly over and do it infront of him!

Any way I am still working on it, you have to remember I dont want to post any thing that is wrong and leads you down the garden path.

Now who was it posted something about the 3/4 wave not working for him? thanks it put me on to a differant tak

Its the phase relatationship of the 1/4 wave resonance of the main engine combustion chamber and tail pipe to the second stage inlet tube that is the critical component to this engine running.

Thats why the engine frequency seemed a bit low to Raymond and me.

So thats were I am! trying to earn a living and keep the family happy and work out a 50 year old secret.

The inlet was a ruse de gare (spelling)

Viv
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Post by milisavljevic » Mon Mar 08, 2004 10:48 pm

DELETED.
Last edited by milisavljevic on Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Viv » Mon Mar 08, 2004 10:59 pm

I just needed a clue that was all, it needed something to get the old brain out of the rut, who was it said about the 3/4 wave thing?

I have attached a drawing from www.hyperphysics.com that shows a nice standing wave, I have marked a line on were the the quarter wave point is from the reflecting wall.

Notice that air displacement and pressure will cross at one point only, in the 130R I would guess that that point is 12.62" from the end of the nose cone!

And thats were the inlet is, it will have pressure in it so it does not appear as a node point as far as the fundamental resonace is concerned but the standing wave of the engines fundamental frequency will be nicely fixed for it to dump the fuel air mixtre in to.

The second stage inlet tubes resonance and phase must tye in to this or the engine will not operate properly.

If the engine is off its design temperature it will not work! thats it! the temperature is critical to the main resonace as well as the inlet, it all is tyed together and interdependant.

The fish tail was a huge bloody clue and I kept walking past it thinking yep thats just to make the tail pipe resonance a bit braudband, jeez!

Oh well somebody pick the bones out of it for me and tell me I am not going mad.

Luc, whats the differance in the engine lengths between Eugenes engine and Rileys?

Luc, this would explaine why the 700 pounder looked as if it had the same inlet dimensions.

Ok on the modified inlet engine you also need to make the tail pipe teloscopic too:-) you listenening Patrick:-)

Viv
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Post by Viv » Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:18 am

Ok so here is some more.

Look at the two attached pictures of the spectrums from Eugene's engine and from Luc's, I should point out that Eugene's is from a rough recording so it should be taken with a pinch of salt.

On Eugene's the engine runs with a reduced second harmonic but an enhanced third harmonic, its in 1/4 wave mode supporting f1 f3 f5 but not f2 f4, so thats a closed end tube from the nose cone to the end of the tail pipe.

On Luc's engine it is in 1/2 wave mode f1 f2 f3 f4 in a decreasing amplitude series, so this looks as if it an open ended tube from say the third stage inlet to the tailpipe (explains the higher frequency too).

So luc's fourth harmonic is at a realy low level and thats the second stage inlet tube, the f2 harmonic is massive and upsetting the whole thing as well.

So Luc's engine is note resonating in the right mode! thats whats wrong, so next is to work out why?

It seems to want to resonate in the wrong mode and that screws up the phase of the standing wave in the inlet and the main engine.

Viv
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Post by Raymond G » Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:28 am

Viv, Luc,

OK. I will try to give some more acoustic imput after my debacle with the tuning calcs with the Riley Manual info. I have attached a file showing Luc's engine's sound file as Viv just posted, but with my own comments. Note that the Third harmonic is really close to and unknown second source just 40 hz higher. If those two frequencies actually coincided (were tuned to each other)then we would see a much stronger third harmonic AND the strong forth harmonic VIV was looking for! So the question would then be: What are the physical analogs of the third harmonic and the second source? The frequencies don't match up exactly with anything i calc, but are similar to first stage induction freq and 3rd and tailpipe frequencies. Got to run, but would like to explore this more later.

Regards,
Raymond
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