Gluhareff 130R power failure issue still open ... Any Idear?

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patrick35
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130R Power Failure

Post by patrick35 » Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:12 am

message for RAYMOND .
are you able to UNZIP the file i send you ?
if not let me know , i have talk to a guy at work and he have explain me how to do for unziping it in one single file .
PATRICK .

Raymond G
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Post by Raymond G » Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:10 am

message for RAYMOND .
are you able to UNZIP the file i send you ?
if not let me know , i have talk to a guy at work and he have explain me how to do for unziping it in one single file .
PATRICK .
No Joy.

Raymond

Viv
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Post by Viv » Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:06 am

Raymond G wrote:Hi! I'm not an Acoustic Expert, but I play one on TV! ;o)

Quick observations:
Using the frequency equations from the manual, I have calculated resonences from the test run to compare to the sound file. See attached Excel file below:

Note: These values are incorrect!!! See post below
Stage 1 Resonence: 1230 hz (possible correlation to 1150 and/or 1290 hz in sound file )
Stage 2 Half Resonence: 441 hz (probable correlation to F3 and F6 1st harmonic)
Stage 3 Resonence: 968 hz (probable correlation to 1000 hz in sound file)
Taile Pipe Resonence: 1000 hz (correlation to Stage 3)

Note the mistuning of stages 1,2 and 3 (1230 hz, 882 hz vs 968 hz). Also note that F2 (287 hz) and F4 (575 hz) are simply higher harmonics of F1 (143 Hz).

Summarize:
F1: 143 hz, source unknown
F2: 1st harmonic of F1
F3: Probable Stage 2 half resonence
F4: 2nd harmonic of F1
F5: 718 hz, source unknown
F6: 1st harmonic of F3
1000 hz: Possilbe stage 3/tailpipe resonence
1150 hz: Possible stage 1 resonence, possible F1 3rd harmonic
1290 hz: Possible stage 1 resonence
1430 hz: 1st harmonic of F5
2290 hz: Possible F1 4th harmonic
2714 hz: Source unknown

So we have F1, F5, and 2714 hz as unique sources. Are they metal resonences (as opposed to fluid resonences)? Is one the sound of the propane jet? Someone smarter than I am please respond! Both the Luc and Gluey sound files have a low (136-143 hz) frequency sound as THE LOUDEST component. What is making that noise?

I welcome corrections!

Regards,
Raymond
Raymond, if you treat the section of the third stage diffuser from the lip to the hole as an open ended tube at 450f then it resonantes at about 2.7khz

The rest I am still working on:-)

Viv
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Monsieur le commentaire

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Post by Viv » Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:08 am

Paul Thonnard wrote:Hi Guys,

The little 5lb jet I run does not have holes in the 3rd stage, yet maintains sonic lock. My guess is that the combustion chamber volume is a Helmholtz resonator and the 3rd and 2nd stages are classic open-end linear resonators. I've modeled this approach and you get a stable node near the flame front. The diffusion in the 3rd stage helps (a little) in dynamic pressure recovery, but lowers the Q of the resonating system with the change in stage 3 cross sectional area. It may also make it more throttleable. My little engine does not have any diffusion in 3rd stage and does not throttle well either - it operates well only within a small band.

I don't have my info in front of me, but I remember at least one place where Gene commented that 1st stage does not have to be in tune with the system. Seemed to make sense to me; given the large difference in cross-sectional area between 1st and 2nd stage, coupling should be minimal. Also, it is furthest from the noise source.

For what it's worth...

Paul
The first stage is furthest from the flame front noise source yes but it is also closest to the propane jet noise source and that has a lot of power in it to make that little tube resonate.

Viv
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Post by Viv » Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:11 am

Raymond G wrote:Danger! Danger! Danger! (well, maybe not that severe)
Okey ... I think we are not on the same values at all. But I am not saying I am right. Okey, here are the numbers Viv and I talk about this morning.
Luc, Your numbers are correct. I was using the equation out of Riley's manual, and IT IS WRONG!!!!

Riley p. 34

f=Sqrt{k*g*R*T1/(2*l)} WRONG!!!!!

should be
f={Sqrt(k*g*R*T1)}/(2*l)

The Riley equation lumps the characteristic length (2*l) under the square root sign, which is incorrect. Using the correct equation, I get the same values as Luc. I apolgize to anyone who was led astray. Please disregard the Excel file Gluey 1. I would go and edit my previously erroneous post, but the list seems to no longer give me that option.

Raymond
The manuel is designed to sell engines not to allow you to design engines:-)

A subtle but important differance!

The whole thing is a subtle misdirection to the technically competant and technomumbo jumbo for the rest

Viv
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Misc updates

Post by Dave » Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:10 pm

Luc: You should have the plans, etc... in your hands today, or tomorrow at the latest. I hope the latest series of modifications pay off.

Patrick: The new batch of pictures looks great, thanks again! From the sound of it you will be busy for the next few days modifying the engine. Have fun and best of luck.

All: These guys are serious, and as you can tell, are putting a lot of time, effort and money into getting this engine to work. Luc took me on a tour of their facility. I have to say that it is the best equipped machine shop I have ever been in and it is BIG. I have to believe that if it is made of metal, and it is needed for this project, they can build it.

In the real world, there are always time pressures and funding is not limitless. There is an old saying "Strike while the iron is hot". Well, the Pressure Jet may not be made of Iron, it's Stainless Steel, but it is definitely HOT and that's close enough for me. We may not get another chance like this. Anything we can do to help move this project forward, and quickly, is a huge benefit to everyone.

Dave
Last edited by Dave on Fri Mar 05, 2004 1:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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143HZ source

Post by Dave » Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:30 pm

Raymond and Viv:
Could the 143HZ be the pulsation resulting from combustion / turbulence / air spring formed in the nosecone and combustion chamber?
Dave

luc
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130R Power failure

Post by luc » Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:35 pm

Hi Guys,

Viv said :
The manuel is designed to sell engines not to allow you to design engines:-)

A subtle but important differance!

The whole thing is a subtle misdirection to the technically competant and technomumbo jumbo for the rest
Bullseye ... You are damn right Viv. I always suspected that and like I said previously, Why would they tell you how to do it, when they can make thoulsands of dollars selling you one and ripping off your pokets.

BUT ... We are gonna change that ... Are'nt we guys? ... He he he.

Dave said :
Luc: You should have the plans, etc... in your hands today, or tomorrow at the latest. I hope the latest series of modifications pay off.
Thanks Dave ... They are not in yet, but I am especting them with alot of curiosity.
All: These guys are serious, and as you can tell, are putting a lot of time, effort and money into getting this engine to work. Luc took me on a tour of their facility. I have to say that it is the best equipped machine shop I have ever been in and it is BIG. I have to believe that if it is made of metal, and it is needed for this project, they can build it.

In the real world, there are always time pressures and funding is not limitless. There is an old saying "Strike while the iron is hot". Well, the Pressure Jet may not be made of Iron it's Stainless Steel, but it is definitely HOT and that's close enough for me. We may not get another chance like this. Anything we can do to help move this project forward, and quickly, is a huge benefit to everyone.
Your damn right Dave ... if it is made of steel, we can sure build it. And you are also correct about the efforts and all of use should make all efforts to solve this while the resources are there.

That is why I come to the next point and it a very important one. Listen-up guys.

I have given my resignation to my boss. Yeap ... I am getting maried this summer and my wife to be and I will move on to another place, her home town, which is 5 hours away from here. Now ... I am here until June 18, 2004.

I have to pass on the knowledge to someone here, if they find a suitable guy. Mean while, I have and I want to complet my projet before I go on with my life.

Now, Dave is right ... Now we have the resources and they will last for the next 3 months, at best. And there is no garanty that after that, I will have the resources to continu further developpment.

So ... Now, there is another factor in line .... TIME.

The race is on guys ... And it is a race against time ... If we want to solve this ... And for the benefits of all in here.

I hope we will succeed and that you guys will back me up on this ...100%.

Regards,

Luc

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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Fri Mar 05, 2004 12:26 am

Hi Guys,

Okey ... Dave, I have received the package you sent me. Wooowwww ... So many new details and data in that one.

My question to you is : What do you want me to do with all that? I was expecting to received copy of all the things you had but I realize that you sent me the originals blue prints and stuff. Do you want me to copy them and return them to you or this is for me to keep?

As far as the 700 pounder is concerne ... Looking at the picture make me realize that this engine is nothing more then a 130R boosted. The noze cone is the same, the intake stack is very close to be the same also, except the combustion chamber were the coils are, has been enlarged by almost twice the Dia. of a 130R combustion chamber to acomodate bigger and larger coils (I think these were made out of 3/4" to 1" Dia. coils). Also, the engine is longer and the tail pipe is bigger and longer.

As for the manual, this things has important details for what is important to calculate (i.e : Exhaust velocity, SFC and other stuff). I beleive that if we take the garbage out of my manual, keep what is good and had what is in your manual, we might have something closer to the reality.

As for the blue prints you sent me, even if they are marked "130R", the engine on these drawings is a plain 130, with oval intake. Also, the lenght of the intake tubes are not the same ... They are longer. I hope you realize that I CAN NOT make copy of that because they are to big. The only thing I can do, Later on, when I will have the time and after my engine is tunned and fully operationnal, is make a real, updated and new sets of drawings that will posted and make public. Again, I need to know if they are mine to keep or I have to return them.

Also ... After reading this new manual and after browsing Viv's "HyperPhysics" link and seeing all the engine versions Eugene made, I came to beleive that making such engine is easier then Eugene or anybody else pretend it is. I beleive Eugene simply selected the thrust he wanted (Tail Pipe size), design the chamber to put in the wanted coils in and when the engine was built, find the engine's reasonance and build the intake stack accordingly. If you look at the 700 pounder, the nozzle and first stage are the same. Only the 2nd and 3r stage are a little bit different. Like I said before... None will tell you that it is simple to do ... If they expect or plan to make big money out of this.

Furthermore, I have just finsih viewing the video tape sent by Dave and recorded by Eugene imself. Woowww ... I saw a ultralight and a drone fly with his engines ... Cool.

But one thing did catch my attention in that video. Coming out from the mouth of Eugene, he clearly says, and I quote "The 2nd stage is 1/2 of a wavelenght and the 3rd stage (Not the 3rd stage and combustion chamber combination) is 1/4 wavelenght of the 2nd stage". In the new manual (The marketing one) they claim that 3/4 wavelenght is achieved at the bottom of the chamber. Were Gluey clearly says 2nd and 3rd stages only. Think about that one guys.

Nice video .... Dave. I have to build on of those....soon ... very soon.

As for my engine is concerne, I have posted a page of what Dave sent me. Read it and you will see that we are not far from having a fully operationnal engine. Pay attention of the temperature mentionned on that page (i.e : Coils exit temp. and chamber temp.) Even with coils different from his, I have that temp.

So ... I beleive that the only thing remaining on my engine, is propre acoustic tunnig. But the coils will be changed anyway, to proove that any type of material can be use. I don't expect more heat coming out of the new coils.

See attached page.

Regards and thanks Dave

Luc
Attachments
Luc-scan.gif
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luc
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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Fri Mar 05, 2004 12:42 am

Hooo ... By the way ...

I am still looking for that "HyperPhysic" Software. The seller did not reply to my messages.

I am also looking for a good FFT software that works on PC or a spectrum analizer software that can produce graphics like Viv did. The ones that I have found produce lines of poor quality and it is hard the see the frequencies.

Here are my 2 address if you find any of those and if you want to exchange Gluey engines related files with me.

faads45@hotmail.com (Mail and messenger)
skeet@securenet.net (Home Email)

Please...Please ... Please ... help me find those ...

He he he ...

Cya,

Luc

patrick35
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spectrum analizer

Post by patrick35 » Fri Mar 05, 2004 1:19 am

hi LUC .

i finaly find what you have ask me today ..hahahaha
3 long hours of looking for .....
a lot of virus too grrrr but everything is ok now , i have scaned the file 2 time with 2 diférent antivirus , and the file look clean . lollllll
i send it to you by e-mail , hope this work this time ... i'm trying for the 3 rd time ....
PATRICK ..

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More on the 130R

Post by Dave » Fri Mar 05, 2004 1:32 am

Luc

I am glad the package arrived OK and am especially pleased that it provides new information that may help.

** IMPORTANT: At first glance the plans only appear to be for the oval intake, but keep going. There are A,B and C sections. If I remember correctly, what you are looking for (the 130R) is on the right side of Set C.

When you find section for the 130R look at the measurements, but pay special attention to the centering attachment to maintain proper alignment between the exit of the 2nd stage and the input of the 3rd. This important little detail did not show up in any other version of the plans that I could find.

Now that you have a picture of the 700 Pound Engine I think you can see why I was so concerned about the heat exchanger. I agree it basically looks like a 130R nose cone and intake with an over sized heat exchanger and tail pipe.

Since it is not possible to get these life sized paper plan any longer, I would like to have the originals back when you are done with them. Just make sure you keep the materials long enough to get everything you need. I will look around to see if can find someone who can still copy plans of this size. If so I will get a few extra sets made and will be happy to share with you.

And yes, when all the kinks are worked out and you make a 2004 version of the plans, I would love to have a shiny new set for my very own. Between now and then just let me know what I can do to keep the process moving.

Dave

PS: Powering an Ultra Light is what got me interested in the engine a long time ago. If you build one I have to see it fly!
Last edited by Dave on Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Is the forum backed up on a regular basis?

Post by Dave » Fri Mar 05, 2004 1:35 am

Does anyone know if the operators of this forum backs up and archives the data on a regular basis? I would hate to see all this knowledge disappear.
Dave

Paul Thonnard
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Post by Paul Thonnard » Fri Mar 05, 2004 5:03 am

[But one thing did catch my attention in that video. Coming out from the mouth of Eugene, he clearly says, and I quote "The 2nd stage is 1/2 of a wavelenght and the 3rd stage (Not the 3rd stage and combustion chamber combination) is 1/4 wavelenght of the 2nd stage". In the new manual (The marketing one) they claim that 3/4 wavelenght is achieved at the bottom of the chamber. Were Gluey clearly says 2nd and 3rd stages only. Think about that one guys.
]

Hi Luc,

I agree with you - the 3rd stage is 1/4 wave length, 2nd stage is 1/2 wave length, and the combustion chamber is the volumetric spring that when the engine is at operating temperature, is tuned to the same frequency. The concept portrayed in the manuals of a wave staying planar while passing through the complexities of the combustion chamber, then bouncing off of the one-dimensionally curved chamber wall, then returning neatly to the flamefront defies my training in physics. The basic Helmholtz model (such as used in piston intake tuning) not only makes sense, but also calculates reasonably well to get a node near the flame front.

Congratulations on your upcoming wedding!!!

Paul[/quote]

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Post by Mike Everman » Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:20 am

Luc,
I paid for the HyperPhysics CD on the site, and it arrived a few days later. I think it a good thing to support Dr. Nave's work. It's an amazing thing, and making it entirely available on the web like that is admirable.

Dave,
Kenneth says he's attempting to make all former threads available once again. I suggest though that you highlight, copy and paste all pages into word. It looks exactly the same. I wish I'd done it to some of my early threads, I vow to do it when Ken gets it back up.
Mike
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