Gluhareff 130R power failure issue still open ... Any Idear?

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patrick35
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Post by patrick35 » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:34 pm

LOLLLL VIV ..

it's not realy easy working with the arm inside the engine through the neck trying to do something on the tip of fingers without the possibility to see what you do ...... ( no place for eyes and complet arm inside the exaust ..... ) ......
even with the first and second stage removed i was not seeing what i was doing , and ,,,well i need an other elbow alf way between the original elbow and wrist ...hahahaha ...

so guy ,,, what i was doing like that ?????

it was COOL to see the smile on the face of LUC'S just before starting the engine , but we have soon see some litle red thing geting out of the engine at LIGHT SPEED ( well not so fast ) before reaching full thrust ........

well let see with the new and improved coils....

PATRICK .

Viv
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Post by Viv » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:41 pm

Thanks for all your hard work today Patrick, I knew it would not be easy but it was worth a try anyway.

Like you say we will have to wait for the new coils to see if it is what we think it is thats causing the problem.

I hope so! I want to see you guys move on to the next stage of your project.

Did Luc get some pictures of the melted stuff flying out?

Viv
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

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Raymond G
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Post by Raymond G » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:09 am

Viv, Luc,
Well your work sounds interesting. I hope your flameholder or baffle or whatever it is that you won't tell us works when you retest on Friday. Good luck :o) I hope this is it!

Regards,
Raymond

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Post by Viv » Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 am

Raymond G wrote:Viv, Luc,
Well your work sounds interesting. I hope your flameholder or baffle or whatever it is that you won't tell us works when you retest on Friday. Good luck :o) I hope this is it!

Regards,
Raymond
Oh it wasn't a flame holder or a baffle Raymond:-) the mods were to alter something already in the engine not to add anything to it.

I just hope it is right, I cant wait untill Friday and find out I was wrong:-( it just all fits whats happening and it even checks out on paper, I had to ring Graham and ask him to double check too!

So any guesses?

Viv
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

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Dave
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Post by Dave » Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:16 pm

OK guys, there is only one thing inside the engine and I can't imagine Patrick was in there just to cop a feel. Were you trying to dampen a dancing heat exchanger? Do you really think resonance in the fuel system could be at the root of the problem? If so, how about adding in the possibility of flex in the fuel line between the throttle and the engine? One more thing that may not have reached your ears (or eyes in this case) is that under certain conditions the flexible fuel line will lope (slowly rise and fall) and the sound of the engine will follow. The oscillation I saw happened when the line was stretched tight and off the ground. The frequency appeared to be very low, at about 1HZ. Could it also be that we have just the right length of tubing to create standing waves? I did not even consider this to be an issue as we are talking about liquid in the fuel line at that point, but hey you never know.

All this suspense is starting to get to me. This morning I had fleeting thoughts of driving to work, but missing my exit. Just a few short hours down the road (OK more than a few) and I would be able to sneak a peek at Friday’s test run first hand…… All right, end of fantasy, time to go to work. Tease me with more clews when you get a chance.

Dave

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Post by Viv » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:14 pm

Dave wrote:OK guys, there is only one thing inside the engine and I can't imagine Patrick was in there just to cop a feel. Were you trying to dampen a dancing heat exchanger? Do you really think resonance in the fuel system could be at the root of the problem? If so, how about adding in the possibility of flex in the fuel line between the throttle and the engine? One more thing that may not have reached your ears (or eyes in this case) is that under certain conditions the flexible fuel line will lope (slowly rise and fall) and the sound of the engine will follow. The oscillation I saw happened when the line was stretched tight and off the ground. The frequency appeared to be very low, at about 1HZ. Could it also be that we have just the right length of tubing to create standing waves? I did not even consider this to be an issue as we are talking about liquid in the fuel line at that point, but hey you never know.

All this suspense is starting to get to me. This morning I had fleeting thoughts of driving to work, but missing my exit. Just a few short hours down the road (OK more than a few) and I would be able to sneak a peek at Friday’s test run first hand…… All right, end of fantasy, time to go to work. Tease me with more clews when you get a chance.

Dave
I was thinking of trying to fly over for the test on Friday:-)

Check your email.

Viv
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

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luc
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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:53 pm

Goooodddd morning guyssssssss,

Heyyy ... Dave ... My Duuuuudee,

I just want to point out something ... Put Viv, Graham, Raymond and all the others together ... Without your traveling here, we would have stayed away from the right track. That Budy, your probably the biggest instigator in finding and solving Eugene secrets ... And probably ... His only nightmare ... The 130R.

Aslo, as for the question if the "Spacer Ranger" was a FAKE. Well ... Patrick (Our silent but dedicated and crasy Jet engine Maniac) pointed out to me that if you look at the picture, you will see that there is no jet wash in the grass under the engines. And also, Patrick and I know that if there is something close to the tail pipe, this thing won't even start.

Now, this thing is pure fake ... Like many other things in that manual.

R. Q. Riley, Vortech and Windspire ... GET THOSE DAMN LIES OUT OF THIS BOOK ... We are in 2004 and we are not stupid... He he he.

(Luc is thinking) ..."Myabe I should send them and Email with this forum Link attached.

By the way ... You guys were very fast to fall on my back yesterday ... For that little thing I forget.

WELLLL ... What about my request for a microphone recommendation?
DID YOU FORGET THIS ONE..... Yes You diddd.

Okey ... I off finishing the coils design and I will post them after.

Hooo ... Bye the way ... I woke-up Viv, last night, at 1:30 in the morning ... Yessss ... he he he.

Qaplaaaa,

Luc

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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:09 pm

Okey Guys,

Here are the new Luc/Dave/Patrick/Viv coils design.

Luc design ... For the side entrance and exit.

Dave design for the Coiled together concept.

Pratick design for the coils outlet transition (Note how they enter a sleeve for easyer welding and brazing).

And Viv design, as per his findings on their vibration. But, we still have to make-up our mind on what concept we will use.

Are we gonna use the "Clamps Concept" (Look on the top of the coils). This little clamp is a representation, and many more can be added all around the coils.

Or ... Are we gonna use the "Flat Bar" concept. Those flat bars will be screwed through the combustion chamber walls and the coils will be gently squeez and hold on the chamber wall. An asbestos tarp strip will be place between the chamber wall and the coils to protect them.

So ... My choice goes for the Flat Bar concept ... Now, I need your votes on the choice here.

Make it short, make it simple and make your vote fast ... The SST tubing is coming today and I will not wait to much time ... Viv is eating his finger nails since we found this.

Okey....have fun looking and choosing...

Qaplaaaa

Luc
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Dave
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Recording equpment...

Post by Dave » Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:38 pm

Luc

You have not been forgotten. I have been giving the recording equipment some thought and have done a bit of research. I have a list in mind, but would want Graham to give it his blessing before you buy anything. Expect a posting late tonight with Part numbers and sources where they can be obtained in the US via the web. Canada,,,,, might be a different story. My recommendations will be for what I hope is serviceable equipment, but still reasonably priced.

I will wait for the test results before getting too fired up about taking much credit for helping to solve the mysteries of the Pressure Jet. Needless to say, everyone involved has contributed greatly to any progress that has been made.

I hope you take lots of pictures, video, audio recordings, set up a web cam, do a live broadcast, make sketches, do paintings….. It has been said that “patience is a virtueâ€

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Post by Viv » Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:56 pm

Ok Cats out of the bag thanks too Dave so we can post the presumed answer to the problem, presumed as we are still waiting for lazy Luc and co to test the engine with the coils wedged or fit the new ones.

Now in all the recordings at high power Lucs engine always seemed to want to run at 143hz and with a big second harmonic, but only at high power! at low power the engine runs like Eugene's with the second,third and fourth harmonics at about the same level.

We have been talking on MSN to speed things up and were discussing were the hell this resonance was coming from, so we were checking the diemensions of all the parts what there temoperature was and were it then resonated when we suddenly checked the heat exchanger coils!

The coils are 11'3" long and at 1000c they will resonate at 142.6hz and the second harmonic is then at 287hz, and thats it!.

When the engine gets up enough power it start to vibrate the coils and they then lock the engine up too 143hz and the second harmonic then screws up the inlet tract breathing by overpowering the the fourth harmonic.

There is also a possibility that the coil vibrations cause a fluctuation in the fuel supply to the nozzle, this would then resonate the inlet tract as well in efect causing a positive feedback loop to form, that would also fit the fact that the engine locks up to 143hz rather than drifting with the temperature during high power warm up.

Yesterdays test was just a quick a dirty test, Patrick wired up the coils to try and stop them vibrating but the heat melted the wire before the engine could get up to high power, worth a try:-)

Now look at the new coils, some how we have to stop the coils vibrating like tuning forks and upsetting things, so we have clips but I think they will move around, strips I like but I want a backing strip as well to space the coils from the engine casing and I would like crinkles so the coils are positively located in the crinkles.

What do you all think?

Viv

PS This is from MSN, the creative reasoning process at its best:-)

what happens if you move the tubes around

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:26:44 pm)
   can't tell...the Gluey drawings are at home......Oupppsss....

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:26:58 pm)
   moving the tube change nothing

Viv says: (3:27:10 pm)
   at high poe

Viv says: (3:27:15 pm)
   power

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:27:17 pm)
   give 2 min....need a piss...Am gonna blow up

Viv says: (3:27:30 pm)
   ok will get a drink here too

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:29:20 pm)
   back

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:30:47 pm)
   Question : Could a piece of metal crossing the combustion chamber cause that high 2nd harmonics?

Viv says: (3:31:53 pm)
   well it would have to resonate at that frequency and to do that it would have to have the right dimensions and be at the right temperature

Viv says: (3:32:05 pm)
   the short answer is yes

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:32:49 pm)
   One of my coils tube...get in the way a bit...when being distorted by heat

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:33:15 pm)
   it has a tentency to go toward the middle of the chamber

Viv says: (3:33:38 pm)
   no i would not have thought that would do it, it needs 2.6m at 1000c

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:33:40 pm)
   but get better when very hot

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:33:55 pm)
   okey...that not it

Viv says: (3:34:08 pm)
   sorry how long are the coils

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:34:21 pm)
   wait...WAIT....you said...2.6 at 1000 °C

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:34:27 pm)
   old on

Viv says: (3:34:44 pm)
   *uck how long are the *ucking coils

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:35:05 pm)
   11 feet

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:35:12 pm)
   2.6 equal 8 feet

Viv says: (3:35:13 pm)
   2.1m

Viv says: (3:35:22 pm)
   wrong guess

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:35:30 pm)
   *uck...the Damn coils

Viv says: (3:35:58 pm)
   hld on

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:36:02 pm)
   wait..... let try it

Viv says: (3:36:13 pm)
   3.3528

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:36:23 pm)
   what

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:36:33 pm)
   what is 3.3528

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:37:35 pm)
   2nd harmonics run at what Freq. ?

Viv says: (3:37:45 pm)
   at 1000c its 14

Viv says: (3:37:51 pm)
   142

Viv says: (3:37:54 pm)
   142hz

Viv says: (3:37:59 pm)
   *uck *uck

Viv says: (3:38:02 pm)
   *uck

Viv says: (3:38:06 pm)
   *uck

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:38:07 pm)
   287

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:38:15 pm)
   WHATTTTTTT

Viv says: (3:38:19 pm)
   second harmonic of the coils

Viv says: (3:38:29 pm)
   its the *UCKING COIL

Viv says: (3:38:34 pm)
   VIBRATING

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:38:40 pm)
   Yessssssssssssssssss

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:38:45 pm)
   YESSSSSSSSS

Viv says: (3:38:48 pm)
   merd

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:39:08 pm)
   If I brace them....will it do

Viv says: (3:39:18 pm)
   get some wel

Viv says: (3:39:32 pm)
   welding wire and rap them up or brace

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:39:34 pm)
   what it the second harmonics of the coils...tell me...tell me

Viv says: (3:39:35 pm)
   them

Viv says: (3:39:51 pm)
   thats were the second harmonic is coming from

Viv says: (3:40:04 pm)
   and why it only shows up at high power

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:40:15 pm)
   lower temperature

Viv says: (3:40:17 pm)
   it takes power to make them vibrate

Viv says: (3:40:21 pm)
   like pi

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:40:27 pm)
   in warm up...they are around 1200

Viv says: (3:40:37 pm)
   like putting a tuning fork on a box

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:40:45 pm)
   but goes down at 1000 °F at max

Viv says: (3:41:09 pm)
   one sec

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:41:17 pm)
   ok

Viv says: (3:41:30 pm)
   they are cooled by the fuel they will allways be cooler than the engine

Viv says: (3:41:34 pm)
   it fits

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:41:39 pm)
   yes

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:41:43 pm)
   YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:41:45 pm)
   Now

Viv says: (3:41:56 pm)
   it just fits the facts

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:42:12 pm)
   How can I brace them....without puting a new peices of metal in...that will screw the engine

Viv says: (3:42:21 pm)
    we need a quick and dirty test to see if it is correct

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:42:32 pm)
   Okey....let me get Patrick and do a quick fix

Viv says: (3:42:33 pm)
   you just need to retune them

Viv says: (3:43:15 pm)
   rapp some wire round random loops to join them up as long as it cant resonante on it intire lenge

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:43:16 pm)
   BRB

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:43:30 pm)
   CROSS YOUR DAMN FIGER...MAN.....WE MIGHT HAVE FOUND WHAT EVEN EUGENE DID NOT GET

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:43:35 pm)
   OKEY...LET GET HIM

Faads is learning acoustic with Master Viv says: (3:43:36 pm)
   BRB

Viv says: (3:43:46 pm)
   ok I will wait but you had better hurry!
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

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Monsieur le commentaire

luc
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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:49 pm

He he he,

Viv last posting is a very good example of real life story ... And funny also.
Have you also noticed the numbers of "F" words in the last portion of the chating ... He he he ... Viv, your a true scientis.

Okey guys,

Now ... Get on this forum and make a vote on the LPDV Coils (LPDV = Luc, Patrick, Dave, Viv) ... Hi hi hi.

Clamps ...Or Flat Bar.

Also ... Microphone ... I need Model, sensitivity, bla, bla, bla ... Because no recommendations = No price = No budget = No Mics = No recording monday.

WE ARE GETTING THERE ...

QAPLAA,

Luc

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Re: 130R Power Failure

Post by Viv » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:13 pm

Luc wrote:He he he,

Viv last posting is a very good example of real life story ... And funny also.
Have you also noticed the numbers of "F" words in the last portion of the chating ... He he he ... Viv, your a true scientis.

Okey guys,

Now ... Get on this forum and make a vote on the LPDV Coils (LPDV = Luc, Patrick, Dave, Viv) ... Hi hi hi.

Clamps ...Or Flat Bar.

Also ... Microphone ... I need Model, sensitivity, bla, bla, bla ... Because no recommendations = No price = No budget = No Mics = No recording monday.

WE ARE GETTING THERE ...

QAPLAA,

Luc
Monday!!! whats this Monday thing? you are running it up tomorrow for the test with new or modified coils arent you!

Let me put it another way, nobody is going to wait till Monday to find out if it works or not! do some overtime if you have too:-)

Viv
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

Viv's blog

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Dave
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Stress...

Post by Dave » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:47 pm

Viv
I am glad to see that I am not the only one obcessed with seeing the results. I feel like a kid on christmas morning waiting for mom and dad wake up...
After seeing Luc's Monday thing I decided to run home for lunch so I can see the new coil design and send Luc my recommendations for a Mic, etc...
Dave

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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:49 pm

He he he,

Yes ... They, you, we all gonna probably have to wait. Guess what ... The new SST-321 tubes are not in yet and it is already 12:40 here.

Onnnnnnn ... Poor, Poor, Porr little Viv Dude. What a nasty weekend this next one will beee ... Onnnnnnnn.

Bye the way ... I am looking for "High Temp. Flex Hose" So I will use it to connect the nozzle to the hot gas tube and fix the nozzle permanently to the first stage. This way it will never move again, remain permanently ajusted and in place and we will be able to make telescopic second stage adjustments without always cutting are re-weldin the hot gas tube every time.

Do you guys know a supllier that can provide 2000 °F capable flex hoses?

Look around please...

Poor Viv ... What a weekend this will be ...

He he he,

Qapla,

Luc

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Re: Stress...

Post by Viv » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:54 pm

Dave wrote:Viv
I am glad to see that I am not the only one obcessed with seeing the results. I feel like a kid on christmas morning waiting for mom and dad wake up...
After seeing Luc's Monday thing I decided to run home for lunch so I can see the new coil design and send Luc my recommendations for a Mic, etc...
Dave
Hey same here buddy, i love the group collabaration thing but it gets a bit of a problem when I am in another time zone:-)

Luc sent me a text last night to log on but it was 1.30am!

Now we have to wait for them to get it all up together and test it to if its right or not.

Viv
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

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