Gluhareff 130R power failure issue still open ... Any Idear?

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patrick35
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Post by patrick35 » Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:47 am

HI VIV

well , give me some time and i will made a lot of thing out of my hands .

on tuesday i will probably made the telescopic 2 nd stage .
for the telescopic tailpipe we have try a lot of thing , from a very long tailpipe and it was shortened inch by inch and we was looking at the loadcell meter , LUC will tell you more about it ... .

LUC have give me 3 to 4 day of work with all the mods we have to do .... hahaha .

PATRICK .

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New Heat Exchanger details

Post by Dave » Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:07 am

Luc

Your explanation of how you were going to wind and anneal the new coils at 2000 °F sounds as though it should eliminate a lot of problems. Additionally, your use of a straight coil entrance and exit should prevent the nasty cracks you showed me at the 45 degree joint just inside the combustion chamber.

How did you do at designing a method of combining the outlets of the new dual heat exchanger coils into a single feeder to the injection nozzle?

Dave

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Post by Viv » Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:23 am

Raymond G wrote:Viv, Luc,

OK. I will try to give some more acoustic imput after my debacle with the tuning calcs with the Riley Manual info. I have attached a file showing Luc's engine's sound file as Viv just posted, but with my own comments. Note that the Third harmonic is really close to and unknown second source just 40 hz higher. If those two frequencies actually coincided (were tuned to each other)then we would see a much stronger third harmonic AND the strong forth harmonic VIV was looking for! So the question would then be: What are the physical analogs of the third harmonic and the second source? The frequencies don't match up exactly with anything i calc, but are similar to first stage induction freq and 3rd and tailpipe frequencies. Got to run, but would like to explore this more later.

Regards,
Raymond
I call that odd peek a sprog, (any hams?) were it is from I have not worked out as yet but like you I am hunting:-)

We do have considerable mass flow and Doppler effects take in to account of in any calcs Raymond so I always tend towards the nearest field rather than ballpark when doing dry calculations.

Thats before you factor in did some one have their fingers crossed was there an R in the month or did they press the start button with one foot off the ground.

The relationship between harmonics barring temperature drift in the stages normally gives a better idea.

Viv
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Post by Viv » Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:29 am

patrick35 wrote:HI VIV

well , give me some time and i will made a lot of thing out of my hands .

on tuesday i will probably made the telescopic 2 nd stage .
for the telescopic tailpipe we have try a lot of thing , from a very long tailpipe and it was shortened inch by inch and we was looking at the loadcell meter , LUC will tell you more about it ... .

LUC have give me 3 to 4 day of work with all the mods we have to do .... hahaha .

PATRICK .
Hey 3 to 4 days! come on now Patrick I have spent a lifetime working with engineers.

You said that but I bet it will only take a day to knock the job off and then you get 3 days to take it easy and loaf about:-)

Viv
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Post by Viv » Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:33 am

Raymond G wrote:Viv, Luc,

OK. I will try to give some more acoustic imput after my debacle with the tuning calcs with the Riley Manual info. I have attached a file showing Luc's engine's sound file as Viv just posted, but with my own comments. Note that the Third harmonic is really close to and unknown second source just 40 hz higher. If those two frequencies actually coincided (were tuned to each other)then we would see a much stronger third harmonic AND the strong forth harmonic VIV was looking for! So the question would then be: What are the physical analogs of the third harmonic and the second source? The frequencies don't match up exactly with anything i calc, but are similar to first stage induction freq and 3rd and tailpipe frequencies. Got to run, but would like to explore this more later.

Regards,
Raymond
Sorry reading to fast and I missed a point.

If the two peeks coincided but were antiphase they would cancell and reduce the the size of the resultant not increase it.

Thanks for pointing that out Raymond I will have another look at it.

Viv
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130R Power failure

Post by luc » Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:44 pm

Okey...I am back from the shop now,

I was helping Patrick change our actual "Intake pointing UP" to an "intake pointing down".

Why we did that .... Simple. Viv has found out that my engine is running on the wrong mode, thus, instead of fitting the intake stake and building up that 3rd harmonics. It seems from Viv finding, that my engine is running more like an open tube (See the Hyperphysic link) were it sould run like a closed tube.

Also, it seems we are only acheiving the close tube reasonance at low power settings and then, suddently, we loose it when the engine goes up in power ... Or up in heat. It seems we have a forever changing condition in that engine. That why Viv pointed out the heat going up from the engine could probably affect the engine, slowly as the heat go up, but continously and steady. Screwing us up (Ouups ... Sorry) Big time.

So...we took no chances, we follow Viv nose and we turn the engine to remove that factor (See attached picture).

Talking of Viv nose, I hope his nose is not that big as the one I am gonna show you. Look how the engine nose cone has inflated. This is what happen when thrust go up in an engine which has a cone manufactured by spinning method.

We are just finding out that spinning is good for the chamber and tail pipe defuser, but not for the nose. It spread the metal to much, making it to thin.

Posted that for you guys to see ... And Viv, just tell me if this can have a bad affect, or it is neglectable.

Have a look guys ... This thing will soon blow-up and guess who is next to it now.

PATRICKKKKK ... I want a deflector shield ... Right next to the nose cone ...

Cya

Luc
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luc
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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:24 pm

Okey... Back from outside,

I tried to have and maintain that low frequency sound at very low power, with the ngine intake stack pointing down ... Nothing ... Simply nothing.

This damn @!?#$#&?%&#&#%??%*)($?*&$?%#& Engine is only giving 57 pnds... 57 miserable pounds. For 3 years now ... Every *'n things we did and tryed .... FAILED.

SOON ... Very SOON ... I am gonna take my damn shotgun and cut this BITCH ... IN PIECESSSSSSSSSSSS.

Hummmmm ... Sorry guys ... I blew-up a fuse.

It does good ... sometime ... To let the frustration out.

You guys give me options or concrete things to try or do.... Because I am out of idears.

AND NOOOO ... I WON'T TAKE A DAMN PULSE-JET ...

Cya,

Luc

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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:31 pm

Hooo...one more thing,

I guees you have figured that one out... But in case you need to know, there is alot of air coming out of the 3rd stage at max power.

During warm-up, the intake stack is capable of maintaining the flame front inside. But this thing spit like a dragon at max power.

One thing is sure ... The combustion is to strong, or the intake stack is to weak ...

You tell me...

Cya,

Luc

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Post by Raymond G » Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:37 pm

Viv,
If the two peeks coincided but were antiphase they would cancell and reduce the the size of the resultant not increase it.
I don't get it. Don't the peaks shown at ~431 and ~460hz on the spectral curve correspond to the peak of the sound wave (in phase) and the troughs in between correspond to the "antiphases"?

The way I interpret this is as one of the following:

1) If F1 (at 143hz) were just a little bit higher (~153hz), then F3 (F1's second harmonic) would be ~460 hz and would constructively ADD to the existing peak at ~460 hz, causing resonence, AND a bigger peak at ~610 hz which would now become both third harmonic of F1 AND first harmonic of F3.

2) If the peak at ~460 were lowerd a little to 431 hz (F3), then a similar resonence to that listed in item 1) would occur, but with F3 remaining at 431 hz and the Third harmonic of F1 becoming larger at 575 hz.

Again, i am still not sure of what the physical analogs would be of raising F1 or lowering the 460 hz peak. Also, as I have mentioned before, I am not an acoustic expert, so I welcome corrections. I'm not trying to say what is what, so much as keep things moving on the acoustic front.

Regards,
Raymond

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Re: 130R Power Failure

Post by Mark » Tue Mar 09, 2004 10:57 pm

Luc wrote:Okey... Back from outside,

I tried to have and maintain that low frequency sound at very low power, with the ngine intake stack pointing down ... Nothing ... Simply nothing.

This damn @!?#$#&?%&#&#%??%*)($?*&$?%#& Engine is only giving 57 pnds... 57 miserable pounds. For 3 years now ... Every *'n things we did and tryed .... FAILED.

SOON ... Very SOON ... I am gonna take my damn shotgun and cut this BITCH ... IN PIECESSSSSSSSSSSS.

Hummmmm ... Sorry guys ... I blew-up a fuse.

Cya,

Luc
I've had days like that, just yesterday, I was running my tiny Logan on propane and asked my wife to come out and see it because it seemed to be running steadily, I even turned the lights out to watch it in the dark for a bit, just as she walked in the garage, it stopped. Then everything that could go wrong did, and I couldn't repeat the sustained combustion again all night. If I ever make a web site it might be entitled, Ihatepulsejets.com.
Mark
Last edited by Mark on Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 130R Power failure

Post by Viv » Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:52 pm

Luc wrote:Okey...I am back from the shop now,

I was helping Patrick change our actual "Intake pointing UP" to an "intake pointing down".

Why we did that .... Simple. Viv has found out that my engine is running on the wrong mode, thus, instead of fitting the intake stake and building up that 3rd harmonics. It seems from Viv finding, that my engine is running more like an open tube (See the Hyperphysic link) were it sould run like a closed tube.

Also, it seems we are only acheiving the close tube reasonance at low power settings and then, suddently, we loose it when the engine goes up in power ... Or up in heat. It seems we have a forever changing condition in that engine. That why Viv pointed out the heat going up from the engine could probably affect the engine, slowly as the heat go up, but continously and steady. Screwing us up (Ouups ... Sorry) Big time.

So...we took no chances, we follow Viv nose and we turn the engine to remove that factor (See attached picture).

Talking of Viv nose, I hope his nose is not that big as the one I am gonna show you. Look how the engine nose cone has inflated. This is what happen when thrust go up in an engine which has a cone manufactured by spinning method.

We are just finding out that spinning is good for the chamber and tail pipe defuser, but not for the nose. It spread the metal to much, making it to thin.

Posted that for you guys to see ... And Viv, just tell me if this can have a bad affect, or it is neglectable.

Have a look guys ... This thing will soon blow-up and guess who is next to it now.

PATRICKKKKK ... I want a deflector shield ... Right next to the nose cone ...

Cya

Luc
The ever expanding nose cone proves there is some pressure in the engine:-) and no it is not going to affect things as badly as whatever it is that is causing the problem anyway.

Its good that changing it over has not made a big effect! I know that sounds odd but it worried me that the engines heat being sucked in could have drifted the resonance of the inlet and I am pleased it was not as that proves the inlet has a certain amount of bredth to its tuning.

Looking at the recordings it does seem as if they match the Gluehareff recordings onlt at low power, a clue?

Viv
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Re: 130R Power Failure

Post by Viv » Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:59 pm

Luc wrote:Okey... Back from outside,

I tried to have and maintain that low frequency sound at very low power, with the ngine intake stack pointing down ... Nothing ... Simply nothing.

This damn @!?#$#&?%&#&#%??%*)($?*&$?%#& Engine is only giving 57 pnds... 57 miserable pounds. For 3 years now ... Every *'n things we did and tryed .... FAILED.

SOON ... Very SOON ... I am gonna take my damn shotgun and cut this BITCH ... IN PIECESSSSSSSSSSSS.

Hummmmm ... Sorry guys ... I blew-up a fuse.

It does good ... sometime ... To let the frustration out.

You guys give me options or concrete things to try or do.... Because I am out of idears.

AND NOOOO ... I WON'T TAKE A DAMN PULSE-JET ...

Cya,

Luc
You think this is hard? hey try Bruno's BCVP if you want hard! three years and we are still working on it:-) engine number ten and god knows what theory we are up too now?

Pressure jets hard! give over! this is just my winter project to tied me over till the weather warms up and we can start testing again.

Think its hard it hasnt got enough thrust? should think yourself blessed it runs when you want it too:-)

Viv:-) tweaking the nipples of fate!
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Re: 130R Power Failure

Post by Viv » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:07 am

Luc wrote:Hooo...one more thing,

I guees you have figured that one out... But in case you need to know, there is alot of air coming out of the 3rd stage at max power.

During warm-up, the intake stack is capable of maintaining the flame front inside. But this thing spit like a dragon at max power.

One thing is sure ... The combustion is to strong, or the intake stack is to weak ...

You tell me...

Cya,

Luc
So Luc! tell me, at what point in this 25 page thread with 4500 readings did you think it would be good to just drop this little tidbit of information in to the mix?

Go on tell me! I am just all freackin ears:-(

Yes this little bit of information was important and yes it does tye in to the idea of the engine being in the wrong mode at full power.

And yes it would have been good to have known it a while ago.

If you have any thing else you think we may like to know now would be a good time!

Mate!

OK!

Viv
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Post by decook1110 » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:26 am

Luc

I haven't read every post, but most of them, let me know if I missed this. Do you have a graph of thrust vs nozzle pressure. What I'm wondering is if its linear in your case.

I briefly tested a small pressure jet years back and did get rated thrust and SFC. I also spent many years planning on using one using the grossly exagerated data on SFC that was published. I finally figured out a way to mathmatically approximate the SFC and posted it previously as somewhere around 3 not .78 .

But my thought is that this engine, if it does get running properly per the G-8 concepts, should make the thrust due to scaling of the smaller ones. But SFC doesn't scale and when you do get rated thrust, expect in excess of 3 most likely around 4.

Here is a picture of two engines from a plane that never flew. I was going to test one, but the owner kept finding reasons not to pull one off to lend me.

He did tell me some intersting things. You might recognize the air plane from the tech manual, but it looks different now. The engines are mounted further apart. The plane designer found that the engines would not both run at the same time close to each other. Something about the noise of one throwing off the flame front in the other. Thats why he never flew, he had to redo the tail from the twin configuration to a single rudder after he respaced the engines and never got around to it. Probably othet reasons also.

He also mentioned how Gene seemed to be having a hard time getting his 130R's working and that he had to do some mods to get these working. He didn't do a very scientific test on the engine, he only ran one engine at a time and used a bathroom scale against the planes nose to measure thrust.

He also commented something to the effect of the space ranger pictures being faked, the engines in the pictures too shiny to ever have been run. At least in those pictures, he also commented something about that guy having people litigate against him (Space Ranger guy) for fraud.

I don't know where Craig W. is these days, but I'm sure he'd take offense to this, but Gene lied about the SFC and seeing how you guys are working so hard on this I thought I'd pass on some heresay from someone who owns two operating engines.

He did seem eager to take the plane out somewhere and fire up the engines, I was only interested in a thrust stand test. Zoltan now has my thrust stand because I lost interest in it. If you are interested I can try to find his contact info and get you in touch with him. He lives in Pontiac Michigan.

I'd really like to see thrust vs nozzle pressure for your engine....

Regards

Dave
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Post by Viv » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:56 am

Raymond G wrote:Viv,
If the two peeks coincided but were antiphase they would cancell and reduce the the size of the resultant not increase it.
I don't get it. Don't the peaks shown at ~431 and ~460hz on the spectral curve correspond to the peak of the sound wave (in phase) and the troughs in between correspond to the "antiphases"?

The way I interpret this is as one of the following:

1) If F1 (at 143hz) were just a little bit higher (~153hz), then F3 (F1's second harmonic) would be ~460 hz and would constructively ADD to the existing peak at ~460 hz, causing resonence, AND a bigger peak at ~610 hz which would now become both third harmonic of F1 AND first harmonic of F3.

2) If the peak at ~460 were lowerd a little to 431 hz (F3), then a similar resonence to that listed in item 1) would occur, but with F3 remaining at 431 hz and the Third harmonic of F1 becoming larger at 575 hz.

Again, i am still not sure of what the physical analogs would be of raising F1 or lowering the 460 hz peak. Also, as I have mentioned before, I am not an acoustic expert, so I welcome corrections. I'm not trying to say what is what, so much as keep things moving on the acoustic front.

Regards,
Raymond
Hi Raymond, for every one we are just looking at the output of a number of sample run through an FFT, it gives us spectral lines seperated by frequency and hight against amplitude.

It does not show any phase information that we have to infer or just plain guess.

The first problem is the at low power the dominant resonace mode is with the engine as a 1/4 resonator, this gives a large third harmonic and a smaller second harmonic as the second harmonic is not supported by this mode.

at high power the engine seems to go in to the 1/2 resonace mode, this gives a large second harmonic with all others graduelly getting smaller as the harmonics progress up the scale.

So it is the amplitudes that are important and the relationships between them, now bear with me.

Fi and F3 are from the 1/4 wave mode, F4 is the second stage inlet tube, half of F4 is F2, now F2 is from the 1/2 wave resonance mode.

In 1/2 wave mode F2 is larger than F 4 so it pushes the mixtre out of the third stage, Lucs spits like a dragon comment.

In Eugenes engine F2 is smaller than F3 and F4 so it is in 1/4 wave mode predominantly and the amplitude of the inlet stack can overcome the amplitude in the engine.

Remember that waves add up and distort the sign wave and cause beats, it is breathing on these beats.

"1) If F1 (at 143hz) were just a little bit higher (~153hz), then F3 (F1's second harmonic) would be ~460 hz and would constructively ADD to the existing peak at ~460 hz, causing resonence, AND a bigger peak at ~610 hz which would now become both third harmonic of F1 AND first harmonic of F3."

But what is this odd little peek at 460hz? with the engine at 141hz the F2 will then double and match the F4 second stage, F3 is fine and so are the others going up the scale but 460 is just odd and I havenet found its source in the engine it does not corrospond to any thing?

If you progress f2 it ends up at 2.7khz and that matches a little peek thrown up by the thrid stage lip too hole resonace, f2 just has to be smaller than f4

With the above ok its still the amplitudes that are wrong from the wrong mode of resonace at high power, the relationship seems ok.

Maybe not the answer you expected Raymond but I am still roughing out the modes of operation and trying to fit them in to the model, the frequencys are not so important as long as the dimensions and temperatures of each resonant part match a corosponding harmonic of the engine, that way as it heats up and cools down it all drifts at the same rate and stays in resonance.

Viv
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