Gluhareff 130R power failure issue still open ... Any Idear?

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luc
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130R power failure

Post by luc » Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:45 pm

Hi Raymond,

Nice to hear from you... Taugh you fell asleep on your desk ... he he he.

As for the Gluey calculations not permitting new engine design, I am not surprise that you say that, because on my side, every time I try to do reverse calculations or even do normal calculations I always come to the conclusion that something is missing. Maybe it was done on purpose by the manual publishers, this way, they avoid seeing 1000s of little Gluhareff around the world and keep selling their engines. But I hear you on that one.

As for measuring the the 3rd stage average temp. It is something that I plane to do very soon. This week, the planned running are for our application problems solving, but as soon as this is done and problems are solve, then we will get in the interesting part of the project ... Finishing ans solving the Gluhareff concept. And beleive me, we will burn so much propane, that Gluey him self would need 3 life to do so.

As for the intake stack staying tuned at all temp. Well, I beleive it is correct. For one reason, remember note long ago, I ran the engine inside to validate that theory. You also remeber the results I guess. Reasults were the same. If I run outside at -22 °F or inside at 70 °F, the reasults are the same ... 40 to 48 lbs. of thrust. So ... Maybe this one is correct.

Also, remeber that calculations use the Rankine degree scale. What can appear to be a wide gap between -22° and 70°F, is not that big in Rankine (437 to 530) now, if you do calculations using those numbers, like I did yesterday, you will find out that speed of sound (mach) and frequency (Hz) do not change alot, and to come to almost no change to the lengt of the 2nd stage. Try it ... You will see. But also remember one of my previous posting ... No change from -22 to 70 °F.

I would like to do a few change on the engine, but considering that the engine work and we have 2 test to do for the application, I was ordered not to tempered with the engine until this is complete. Probably next week I will be ok.

Don't sleep on the job guys ...................WAKE-UPPPPP .... He he he.

Bye the way ... where is Dave ... Is he coming or not?

Cya,

Luc

Raymond G
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Post by Raymond G » Wed Feb 18, 2004 6:16 pm

Luc,
I'm awake. I'm running low on ideas though. As I mentioned before, variable length ejectors and exhaust pipe might do the trick. The pipe might be the easiest to implement. The ejectors' positions would also need to be adjusted to keep inlets/outlets at the same relative positions.

Another coarse could be to put very small pitot/static probes at the exit of each ejector stage, and possibly at the end of the tailpipe, so that you could measure actual mdot's for each stage. This should actually not be so hard to implement, and I am a little suprised at myself for not mentioning it before. Sections of bent and straight microtubing plumbed to a bank of external gauges, or to a computer DAC system, along with temp sensors at the corresponding points would be all that was needed, though the 3rd stage might get tricky with the possible high temps. This data should tell us directly what our fuel/air ratio is and our mass flow ratio through the ejectors. Then we will know wether the problem is with the ejector tuning, the exhaust tunig, the ejector/exhaust matching, or none of the above.

These are all just ideas though and I cannot say wether they would be worth the effort. It is worth noting though that whenever the big boys are making a new turbine engine, they collect all this data and more, so that they have an accurate picture of exactly what their engine is doing, and can fix any anomoly.

Regards,
Raymond

Raymond G
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Post by Raymond G » Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:25 pm

Zoltans,

I would love ot hear more about your induction jet engine. Would you be willing to share more about it? What thrust levels have you achieved?

Regards,
Raymond

Raymond G
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Post by Raymond G » Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:10 pm

A bit off topic. Does anyone know what the pressure range is for a Coleman propane canister? Does anyone have experience using them for propulsion experiments?

Thanks,
Raymond

luc
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130R power failure

Post by luc » Thu Feb 19, 2004 9:29 pm

Hi Raymond,

For your question :
A bit off topic. Does anyone know what the pressure range is for a Coleman propane canister? Does anyone have experience using them for propulsion experiments?
The answer is the same for all containers. From Colman bottles to 500 gal. tanks and ect ... The pressure is directly related to the the ambient temperature. Unless there is no more liquid propane in your bottle (It is empty then), it depend on the bottle temp.

Here some numbers, so you can draw your self your own graphic. And of coarse, the graphic is linear, so you will know your pressure at all temp.

Bye the way, I have a specification sheet here for propane (C3H8).

Pressure @ 70 °F = 109 psig.
Pressure @ -43.7 °F = 0 psig. or boiling point of the propane, witch is the same.

I hope this information help, if you need more info on Propane just let me know. I will glad to answer.

Bye the way ... It is a quiet day for the pressurejet topic and were is Dave ... Did he vanish or what?.

Cya,

Luc

luc
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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Thu Feb 19, 2004 9:55 pm

Heyyy Raymond,

Don't say I am not a good boy for you ... he he he.
A bit off topic. Does anyone know what the pressure range is for a Coleman propane canister? Does anyone have experience using them for propulsion experiments?
To make sure my information on Coleman bottle were 100% accurate, I called the 800 number of the Coleman company and tech support confirmed that the only thing they do, is put a specefic liquid propane quantity in the bottle and the ambient temp. does the rest. Actually, he told me that their BBQ stove regulator are no more then 200 psig. proof. and their purpose is to drop that pressure (109 psig. @ 70 °F and so on ...) below 15 psig. for BBQ use.

So... there you have it my friend

Am I not a nice guy or what? ... He he he

Cya

Luc

Raymond G
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Post by Raymond G » Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:30 pm

Luc wrote,
So... there you have it my friend
Am I not a nice guy or what? ... He he he
Yes, very nice. Thank you. Now that you say it, it sounds so obvious.

Regards,
Raymond

Graham C. Williams
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Acoustics

Post by Graham C. Williams » Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:51 am

Is their an acoustic specialiste in this room ... You have the stage Sir ... We are all hears
I know a little about the subject. I would not call myself an expert, but have some experiance in recording high amplitude signals and may be able to help. Please give details of what it is you want to achieve. If I cannot answer for sure I'll find someone who can.
Graham.

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Is a recording trip still needed?

Post by Dave » Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:55 pm

Luc, Graham, Viv, etc...

If a recording is still beneficial I may be able to do it on Friday February 27th. Tentatively, I would plan to drive up on Thursday (leaving time to deal with Customs) and should be available to do record on Friday.

Luc, assuming that we still need to do a recording, I will need direction on how to find you. A phone number and possibly a map would also be beneficial.

Graham, I plan to use a Behringer UB1832FX mixer but the microphones and recording device are still up for in the air. Although I have several dynamic mics, I believe that the sound pressure levels, wave forms, etc are beyond what they can accurately capture. I should have time to pick up a condenser mic, but do not think I can obtain anything much more exotic than a Behringer because of time, cost etc... I had been looking at the Behringer B2 but more recently I have been checking out the B5. The B2 has dual large diaphragms, but only 145DB max SPL. The B5 is a single diaphragm mic but has a max SPL of 150DB and comes with dual pattern pickups. On the recording side, I will most likely use the PC I am now building, or I may be able to get my hands on a small digital recorder from a friend. Either way final editing would take place on a PC. I realize that clipping must be avoided at all costs if the recording is to be of any use. Any additional input you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

If the trip is still on please contact me at my home email address (see my profile), or feel free to post the information here. I will need some time to prepare and run some tests prior to the trip. I look forward to hearing from you today if possible.

Dave

luc
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130R Power failure

Post by luc » Fri Feb 20, 2004 1:15 pm

Hi Dave,

I personnaly beleive that the recording is still something we must do. Even if our engine is not performing, I beleive we need a milestone to start with. This event would teach us how and what it looks like, we could also try to image the wave form. After that, we would have something to start for improovement.

Remember, bad engine or good, it give us a place to start, for better or worst.

So ... If you guys think it is still ON, I give Dave all details to come over here.

Waiting for your replies.

Cya

Luc

Graham C. Williams
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Recordings

Post by Graham C. Williams » Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:41 pm

Dear Dave.
I don't know the B5, but the max SPL sounds about correct. What is the mics sensitivity? Ideally you want about 8mv/Pa. Perhaps it has a -10dB switch. In any case look to the mic amp, can you get near to unity gain?
You'll need 10 to 20dB at most.
Your correct about clipping, avaoid it at all costs.
Also if you can try to avoid early reflections and too much heat.
Graham

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Recordings

Post by Graham C. Williams » Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:32 pm

Dear Dave.
Just had a look at the B5 mic. At 10mv/Pa and If you can get the omni version it should be OK. Without actually using it you cannot tell, but looks well worth a try.
Best Regards
Graham

luc
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130R power failure

Post by luc » Sat Feb 21, 2004 12:47 pm

Hi guys,

Weekend time ... Yesssssssssssss.

Okey, it is a shame we can't do a poll on this forum. I remember when I was an IKC (Imperial Klingon Comand) we had an option to do polls on our forum.

Okey ... The question still remains :
Do we need the recording of our pressure Jet? Please answer by a "Yes" or "No". This way, our friend won't do a 6 hour drive for nothing if we don't need it.

I personnaly think : Yes.

Cya,

Luc

Mike Everman
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Post by Mike Everman » Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:46 pm

Most definitely YES. Some very talented people around here know what they are looking at when they analyze this kind of waveform. I hope to see the intake stacks frequencies show up after FFT. The speed of sound and therefore the frequency of these tubes should not change much while running.
My mind's eye has you guys verifying the speed of sound through these intakes (data of great value, I think) just by looking at the distribution of these two or three high frequencies, and comparing to the distribution of thier lengths.
Faaaaascinating.
Mike
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Viv
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Post by Viv » Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:46 pm

Hi guys

Back from my holiday (pic attached) so I have just spent hours reading up on all the posts.

Yes the intack stack tuning is critical, yes an FFT and a mic in real time can be used to tune it, yes we need a good recording to see what is going on first.

Have I missed any thing?

I noticed the location of the ram air intake was in the first and second stages and that the third was left as normal.

I don't think the engine needs streamlining to operate so all the spinning on the nose can be replaced by a flat end, Sorry:-) it is mentioned in the manuel.

A good recording will answer a lot of questions, and as Luc has pointed out nobody yet has produced proof that this motor will do 130Lbs

we are still in the dark.

Viv
PS whats the snow boarding like in Canada?
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

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