Gluhareff 130R power failure issue still open ... Any Idear?

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luc
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130R power failure

Post by luc » Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:53 pm

Raymond,

I am still locking forward to your comment on my question :

Out of the 3 events that gave use data, the CFD simulation, yesterday's running and the Gluhareff manual theorie and data. What are the 2 events that that have the closest similarity. for example, if yesterdays run and the CFD simulation, both indicate to much fuel flow or a rich mixture, well mayby that the conclusion we should come to, that what is in the manual is not good or someone tempered with it.

Also, I remember someone telling me that there was not alot of difference the date from the nozzle @ 225 psig. and the one @ 700. I don't remember who told me that. But if this is the case here, and considering that we run to rich, mayby the problem is only that ... Air.

Tell me what you think.

Cya.

Luc

Dave
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Trip for a recording session.

Post by Dave » Sat Feb 14, 2004 5:56 pm

Luc
Unfortunately it appears that I have a family emergency to attend to at the moment, but I do want to start planning for a recording session. I am thinking of making the trip a long weekend. Would it be better for you at the beginning or end of a week? I will also have to talk to customs to make sure I don't have any trouble moving the equipment across the border both ways. They are a bit more difficult these days. Any additional thoughts you have on where to stay, etc… would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to email me directly or post the information on the forum. I may be out of touch for a few days, but will be back.
Dave

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Re: 130R power failure

Post by zoltans » Sun Feb 15, 2004 2:47 am

Luc wrote:Raymond,

I am still locking forward to your comment on my question :

Out of the 3 events that gave use data, the CFD simulation, yesterday's running and the Gluhareff manual theorie and data. What are the 2 events that that have the closest similarity. for example, if yesterdays run and the CFD simulation, both indicate to much fuel flow or a rich mixture, well mayby that the conclusion we should come to, that what is in the manual is not good or someone tempered with it.

Cya.

Luc
I have spent some time studying the G8-2-130R engines because I am hoping to make a flying car.

For the engine to work the fuel has to be the right temperature and pressure at the nozzle. These values will be different for various ambient air pressures and temperatures.

I have been running my engines at around 105 F ambient temp and the usual sea level pressure. I painted my fuel tank black to increase the temperature even further. Even with the air and fuel being this hot the engines need to be warmed up to work.

Initially they operate too rich, this can be seen because unburnt fuel exits the exhaust system. After about maybe 15 seconds the coils get warmer and a rapid transition takes place. As the coils heat up, the fuel density decreases and more burning takes place inside the combustion chamber. This heats the chamber and the coils even more. This positive feedback causes the engine to transition from rich to lean very rapidly, in a fraction of a second. After this transition the engine works fine.

If you have high fuel pressures before the coild heat up the engine will never work. You need to heat it up at around 10-20 PSI. If you are working with cold air you probably need to install a preheater to heat the engine.

The vacuum in the intake first stage is about 1 psi for every 40 lbs of thrust, measured 1 inch from the top of the first stage tube.

Zoltan

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Post by Paul Thonnard » Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:21 am

Hi Zoltan,

It's good to hear from you again. Have you had any luck finding a good place to test your engines? I now have the small version (5lb thrust) to play with and have noticed the same rapid transition that you describe related to the heating of the coils.

Cheers,
Paul

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Post by zoltans » Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:40 am

I have tried to establish a number for the fuel consumption. I took an engine (130R) out to the desert and ran it. I videotaped the run and timed it. I also weighed the fuel tank before and after using a strain gage scale.

The fuel consumption I got was better than 2. My uncertainty came from the fact that I used some time to preheat the engine and this took some fuel.

Theoretically if the entire energy content of the propane is used to accelerate a 14 to 1 mixture than the sfc will be just under 1, like 0.8 or so. Heat and airflow drag will reduce the thrust so the sfc will be higher.

If the mixture is leaner the sfc will be improved. Propane will burn up to maybe 40 to 1 and so the sfc can be reduced to 0.35 or so. More air can be mixed into the flow after the combustion so there is no lower limit to the SFC, other than practical limits on the diameter of the ducting.

In the 130R I observed some burning in the second stage, namely the center of the second stage got hot during operation. Excess air may be induced into the third stage.

If ram air enters the intake this will cause the coils to cool and the mixture to lean. This will cool the fuel and increase the density of the injected flow, compensating for the mixture, keeping it in the combustible range. The engine will quit when eventually the fuel is too cold to ignite, i.e. below 600 F.

Zoltan

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Post by zoltans » Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:52 am

Still no luck finding a place to run engines. I am working on a boiler to preheat propane for my engines.

The 130R gives me 115dB noise at 30 feet so I am hoping to make a new design without the acoustics. Try to get smooth flow coming out.

I don't see a limit for the thrust, up to about 800 lbs for the 130R. It only shuts down at 130 lbs because for higher thrusts you need longer heat exchanger coils.

Zoltan[/quote]

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Post by Raymond G » Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:31 am

Zoltans Wrote:
I have spent some time studying the G8-2-130R engines because I am hoping to make a flying car.
Thanks for posting zoltans. It sounds like your knowledge and experience are exactly what Luc was looking for when he started this thread.

Your Induction jet design on your website looks very interesting, and quite similar to some theoretical work I've been doing for some years, right down to your applications. Maybe you would like to start a new thread on induction jets/linear pressure jets to discuss your design?

Regards,
Raymond[/quote]

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Post by Raymond G » Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:38 am

Luc,
Zoltan's posts seem to me to change the scenary a lot. In a previous post, I mentioned:
2. If you do not have tuned induction, you will not have enough airflow. I wish I could find it, but I saw a couple years ago a tech report where the investigators tested ejectors of varying length, and found that the lengths corresponding to certain natural frequencies showed a fair increase in massflow. The Gluey manual says basically the same thing.
I certainly agree with Paul that vibration could kill you. Also you may have issues with the ejectors not "starting" properly, meaning that they are somehow opperated away from there design point, and therfore do not behave "tuned".
Where I was going with this was wether operationally there was something you were doing that was not allowing the ejectors to reach their proper resonance. This thought seems to be confirmed with zoltan's post:
Initially they operate too rich, this can be seen because unburnt fuel exits the exhaust system. After about maybe 15 seconds the coils get warmer and a rapid transition takes place. As the coils heat up, the fuel density decreases and more burning takes place inside the combustion chamber. This heats the chamber and the coils even more. This positive feedback causes the engine to transition from rich to lean very rapidly, in a fraction of a second. After this transition the engine works fine.
wouldn't it be nice if that was all the problem was all along?!

Raymond G
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Post by Raymond G » Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:44 am

Zoltans,
I just want to confirm. As I understand your posts, you say that you have a G8-2-130R and that you have been able to get the claimed 130 lbf thrust out of it. I just want to hear you confirm it so that we all can know once and for all that this design is not just vaporware, but is truly capeable of what is claimed.

Also,
I don't see a limit for the thrust, up to about 800 lbs for the 130R. It only shuts down at 130 lbs because for higher thrusts you need longer heat exchanger coils.
Would you be willing to please elaborate?

Regards,
Raymond

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Post by zoltans » Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:47 am

Quite a while ago Mr. Gluhareff and I ran one of the 130R engines at 80lbf of thrust. This happened when I visited him in Hesperia. The engine was mounted on his test stand.

I myself recently (1 year ago) got two 130R engines and a thrust stand. I have only ran my engines to about 60 lbs of thrust. I made a report to this forum describing I think two of my test runs with detailed data.

I am still working on a high pressure fuel system (helium tank with a pressure regulator) and a boiler to preheat the fuel. I am mostly working on the induction jet engine but I do test stuff with the 130R.

To get the 130 lb thrust you need to get about 170 psi at the nozzle and you might also need clean fuel i.e. pure propane.

Based on the data at altitude, lower air pressure and colder air will cause the engine to quit at a lower thrust value.

Zoltan

luc
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130R power failure

Post by luc » Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:05 pm

Hi guys,

I have been reading all the new post and my first comment on that, would be that until until someone come to this forum and confirm he's got an engine that deliver 130 lbs of thrust (Backed-up with proof, i.e: LoadCell grapghic, video ... ect.) we stay focused and continu the way we are going. What I mean by that, is that probably alf this planet can post and say "Heyy .... I have a 130R that push 130 pounds" It does not mean they have one or can proove it.

Zoltans ... I am more then happy to see you here and see that your having success with 130R, because I don't. So could you proove your affirmations and also answer to Raymond's question ... "Do you have a 130R that producce 130 lbs of thrust?" If the enswer is "Yes" ... Mannnn we will be all ears and eyes on you. We would really appreciate to see data, number or informations that could help me and others to put the Gluey engine were it belong to be.

As for 800 lbs. of thrust for the 130R .... Hummmm .... I would love to see that.

Can I also have your website address. I have read some words like induction intake and inline pressurejet that got me curious.

Raymond ... I know this looks like it is what we were waiting for and what was missing, but before we jump the guns here, can I suggest we wait to see some fact or results proof.

As for the engine tuning, you guys have to realise that every time you mention that word "Tuning", you loose me right there. Tunning ... Tuning ... Tuning .... What is tuning and how do I tune the intake? That is what I need to know ... How the hell do I tune that intake? ... Do I need a microphone and sound analyser, what should the sound analysis look like? Do I drill 3000 holes in the 3rd stage???? What is ..... Tuning?

But Yessss ... Raymonds ... It would be nice if in deed, Zoltans had the answers we are missing.

Dave ... End of the week or begining of the week, no matter, you make call. Just tell me when you can come and I will make sure we are ready to run the engine. As for a place to live....if you are short of that ... Don't worry ... We can keep you and feed you for a day or two ... he he he.

One thing I need to know first. Are you gonna be able to define the word "Tuning" when your gonna come here and give us a basic accoustic training, so in the futur, we will be able to "Tune" our own engines?

So... Raymond, Zoltans ... Guys, I don't have any problem changing direction in our investigation and improovement of the Gluey 130R. But I would like to do this based on fact and numbers, not only on "Heyyyy ... I know or I have one ... " or the forum threat is sure to last for the next 10 years.

Waiting for your answers,

Regards,

Luc

luc
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130R power failure

Post by luc » Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:11 pm

Hooo ... One more thing Zoltans.

If I understand you correctly in what you said, the engine performances can be screwed only by a bad operation or warm-up conditions, is that what you are saying?

Thanks,

Luc

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Post by Raymond G » Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:17 pm

Luc,
I don't neccessarily suggest that you go in a completely new direction, just that another simple test might be in order. When you run the engine, operationally, do you just wait for the nozzle temp to reach a certain value and then open the throttle? Or do you slowly raise the throttle through the lower regions? Do you experience the sudden rapid change from rich to lean that zoltans and Paul note at low power levels? If I understand correctly, then burner utilizes a standing wave flame front. The position of this flame front may be important, and a rapid throttling may not allow it to form properly. You may need to 'hunt' around with the throttle at low power untill you find the right operating point for the engine before opening the throttle.

Regarding 'tuning'. First, I am by no means an expert, so I am hoping that some of you guys with some more experience will sound in. First, like the pipes on an organ, all tubes have a certain resonant or natural frequency that they will sound off at when air passes through them. Second, the Gluareff manual states that these resonent frequencies must be reached and matched from one part of the engine to the next for full thrust to be achieved. I believe that this resonence is why 'tuned' ejector tubes can also be called 'resonators'. Third, this resonence matching can be thought of as sound wavefronts passing through the engine. When the wavefronts line up, you get 'constructive interference' of the wavefronts, and consequent beneficial mass flow through the induction AND exhaust systems. If, however the wavefronts don't line up, then you will get "destructive interference" and a resulting loss of massflow through the engine.

So what does this all mean for Luc? Well first, you can try playing with the throttle, as suggested above. Second, you can make sound recordings to see if you can 'see' the systems resonences from a spectral analysis of the sound file. Third, you could try blowing compressed air into the induction stack to see if you can force the system into resonence(I cannot personally recommend this method as it could be potentially quite dangerous, i.e. proceed at your own risk). You could try making the induction and exhaust tubes have telescoping lengths so that each could be tuned while running. This method would probably work best in conjunction with the sound spectrum analysis mentioned above.

zoltans site is listed in his user profile: http://vtol.net

Regards,
Raymond

luc
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130R Power Failure

Post by luc » Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:07 pm

Hi Raymond,

To answer your questions :

First when I operate the engine, we usually follows the Gluey method. At first, when we start the engine, we let it warm-up @ around 50 psig. At first, is only soft nozzle jet sound and the engine is just a torch. When getting warmer, is goes into a sort sonic lock and a grounding sound apear. At the same time, you the pressure going up even if your not doing any adjustment. You have trolle it down or it will go into that hi pitch "Wissling" noise. We could stay at that level for hours and we tried it, with no significant results. When the engine is glowing lite orange, we open the throttle slowly until it goes to resonance, but still ... No thrust.

Also, Zoltans says
You need to heat it up at around 10-20 PSI.
Well ... Gluhareff and I have a problem with that. If you let the engine warm-up with that little pressure, what happen is that the cold mixture flow can't maintain the combustion in the chamber and your second stage become red hot quite fast and deformation will occure. If you refer to the Gluey manual, his advise goes against that. But I will try it anyway.

As for wavefront alignement or disalignement, can you post and exemple or an image of that. I am a visual an understand better when I see.

Also, maybe Zoltans has a recording of a 130R pushing 130 lbs. This could help us alot in duplicating a condition and many peples would learn from that.

Also Raymond, you said :
Third, you could try blowing compressed air into the induction stack to see if you can force the system into resonence(I cannot personally recommend this method as it could be potentially quite dangerous, i.e. proceed at your own risk).
Why is it dangerous ... Explain please. I see no danger in blowing compressed air in the intake stack. This could be easy to do concidering that I have a 2000 psig. Nitrogen bottle here. I could easelly pressurize the stack through the nozzle under 225 psig. and if it is tunned or tune it.
Please explain Raymond.

Conclusion, I will still try the Zoltan's method. I will also try the tuning and hopefully welcome Dave with is recording equippment. In the mean time, if some of you guys have some picture, image or what ever I can use to learn about tuning, that would be fun.

And Zoltans ... I am ... We are still waiting for that answer on your claims about your engine being 130 lbs. capable or maybe a nice demonstration or proff of some kind.

Cya guys,

Luc

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Post by Mike Everman » Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:03 pm

zoltan wrote:I have only ran my engines to about 60 lbs of thrust. I made a report to this forum describing I think two of my test runs with detailed data.
That's what he said, anyway.
Mike
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