Gluhareff 130R power failure issue still open ... Any Idear?

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Mark
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Post by Mark » Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:57 am

Looks like the pioneer spirit is alive and well. What fun, it beats most people's day job.
Mark

Dave
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Recording quality.

Post by Dave » Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:50 am

Luc
Now that is an amazing rig! I love the provision you made to adjust the intake duct positions, etc... Would it be possible to see more of those kinds of details?

Viv
If a good sound recording is that important to the cause, I may be able to take a drive up to see Luc, assuming that's OK with him. Although the equipment is not up to what Graham could offer, I do have access to a new Behringer mixer, mics, etc... The stuff belongs to my daughter, but I still have some influence... His guestimate is that he is 5 -6 hours away but I am getting a bad case of cabin fever so a road trip does not sound so bad...

Dave

Paul Thonnard
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a couple of thoughts on your engine

Post by Paul Thonnard » Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:34 am

Hi Luc,

I finally found the new forum and have been reading all of your posts to catch up. It is really cool to see someone take this so seriously. I had a couple of suggestions that I did not see in earlier postings.

1. Do you have the same length to the internal straight section of the propane nozzle as Gene had quoted in the plans? In trying to understand his engine over the years, I have made detailed comparisons in dimensions between all of his models. I will attach the spreadsheet, if I can figure out how. In comparison to the 130 series, his 80 lb thrust model was a poor performer in terms of TSFC, yet the only significant difference between the 2 fuel delivery systems is the length of the nozzle draft (the 80 also has 4% less heat exchanger area, but that is insignificant). There are many reasons why the TSFC is worse on that model, but the curious part is that the absolute fuel flow is 2x higher in the 80 lb model! I think Gene had an emperical genius and realized how boundary layer growth in the propane nozzle could be used to his advantage, i.e. it reduces the effective nozzle area and varies the flow rate with the nozzle temperature.

2. In the last pictures posted, it looks like you have some flare at the entrance to the 3rd and 2nd stage intakes, but not the amount recommended. I know that Gene recommended that the flares go a full 90 degrees to the tubes and then extend a little way out like a shelf. This recommendation I don't fully understand, but he didn't seem like the type of guy that would go out of his way to do something for posterity. Maybe you tried the full flares in earlier versions of the engine.

3. Most importantly, is it possible that the way in which you have mounted the 2nd stage is allowing undesired vibrations to occur between the 2nd and 3rd stage? It is amazing how the smallest vibrations can wreck the tuning in a piston engine. A type of concrete is used to fill water jackets of drag engines and thicker castings have big payouts in 2 cycle engines. Gene had solid spacers between the 2nd and 3rd stages to make sure they were concentric and could not vibrate relative to each other. 1st and 2nd stages are rigidly held end-to-end with heavy wire. Again, you may have started with the original design and still did not have luck, but I have learned the hard way that seamingly insignificant vibrations can have a profound effect on performance.

Maybe one of these is the culprit.

Paul
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Gluhareff Dimension Comparison - Thonnard.xls
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Raymond G
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Post by Raymond G » Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:45 am

Wow,
First Luc and Patrick,
Thank you so much for running these tests and sharing your results and photos with everyone. Your efforts are greatly appreciated.

Now,...
Luc, I know you are getting anxious to run some more CFD, but this new information sheds new light, and I am not sure yet that that is the best direction to follow, though I certainly love to see such anaylsis done.

As I mentioned in a previous post, it sounds like you are running the engine too rich, as you have excessive fuel flow and and low thrust. Now to be too rich, you would have:

1. Too much fuel flow
2. Too little airflow
3. All of the above

Let's look at each case:

1. We already saw that your fuel flow is considerably higher than it should be with .100 lbm/sec measured vs .06 lbm/sec calc'd, AND SFC of 7.8 lbm/lbf*hr (I verified that value, by the way, as you requested). Also, your combustion temp is in excess of 2000F AND your metal temps are in the 1600-1800F range (if the colors in the photos are accurate), so it would appear that your engine is running hot. So I would guess that you have too much fuel flow somehow.

Can you verify that your fuel nozzle has a .250 in dia throat. This would be 6,35 mm (not 12,7mm as I posted previously in error). A small error in nozzle size could have a much larger effect on fuel flow than you would think due to both scaling and boundary layer issues

2. If you do not have tuned induction, you will not have enough airflow. I wish I could find it, but I saw a couple years ago a tech report where the investigators tested ejectors of varying length, and found that the lengths corresponding to certain natural frequencies showed a fair increase in massflow. The Gluey manual says basically the same thing.
I certainly agree with Paul that vibration could kill you. Also you may have issues with the ejectors not "starting" properly, meaning that they are somehow opperated away from there design point, and therfore do not behave "tuned".

3. It is possible that you have either or both of the above to cases going on. It is also possible that one is directly causing the other. For example:

i) Too much fuel. Maybe someone spec'd a 7mm reamer to make the fuel nozzle, because it was on hand, and seemed close enough. Or maybe the nozzle eroded out to a larger size.
ii) Result is engine wants to run a little lean, and therefore hot.
iii) This off design temp causes the third stage ejector, and the exhaust nozzle to no longer be in tune with the 1st and 2nd stage ejectors.
iv) This results in reduced airflow throughout the induction stack from detuned back pressure
v) This leads to an even greater leaning and consequent increase in combustion heat.
vi) This pattern 'cycles' untill it finds its new balance point which is the result we see.

I am not saying that this is what is indeed happening, merely giving a possible scenario. Anyhow, I think this shows that if you are not getting proper tuning of the induction system, you could see the results you are.

This is where the sound recording may come in useful. I would imagine that if everything is tuned and running as it should be, then you would see spikes in the sound's amplitude at the various frequencies corresponding to the system's resonences. If things are not tuned, then I expect we would see many different frequencies that did not line up. I am not an expert by any means, this is just a guess.

I think that is enough for now, as this is getting too verbose. Talk soon

Regards,
Raymond

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Post by Raymond G » Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:49 am

Criky! found a mistake already.
ii) Result is engine wants to run a little lean, and therefore hot........
v) This leads to an even greater leaning and consequent increase in combustion heat.
I meant rich, not lean.

Sorry if I confused anyone.
Raymond

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Post by Viv » Fri Feb 13, 2004 11:59 am

I was writing a long post mentioning every body points and going in to an explanation of the acoustics but then it struck me what was wrong with the pictures.

Luc, exactly were is the flame front located? is it as per the manuel and located at the bottom of the diffuser or is it be blown in to the combustion chamber?

If it is not spot on in the diffuser the engine is operating as a just a burner so 48Lb of thrust is doing well!

Viv
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Post by Viv » Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:18 pm

Viv wrote:I was writing a long post mentioning every body points and going in to an explanation of the acoustics but then it struck me what was wrong with the pictures.

Luc, exactly were is the flame front located? is it as per the manuel and located at the bottom of the diffuser or is it be blown in to the combustion chamber?

If it is not spot on in the diffuser the engine is operating as a just a burner so 48Lb of thrust is doing well!

Viv
Ok thinking to fast and not explaining myself, sorry!

Right, there are a number of ways the engine can run, correctly with the flame front located in the diffuser, think of the flame front like a drum skin being beaten, as the skin vibrates the nose cone acts as a gas spring locking the tail pipe in to a resonance that matches the inlet stacks that reinforces the vibration of the drum skin.

Now if the inlet velocity is too high the flame front gets blown in to the combustion chamber and the fuel just burns there, the engine looks like it is running ok it gets nice and hot and stuff comes out the exhaust but there is nothing to pump the engines resonance systems to lock up the acoustics and provide the extra compresion.

A comment that is made when these engine are run up is that they honk and that the holes have to be drilled in the right places to get them to work.

Now Luc you said the holes did not make a lot of differance and you have never mentioned the honk sound or anything similar?

And we realy need that sound recording!

Viv
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luc
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130R power failure

Post by luc » Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:18 pm

He he he ... Nice Picture ... Pat,

Hoooo .... Bye the way, let me introduce you to Patrick. He is the one that works with me on that projet. He is the wizard mechanic, welder, operator you name it that does all the hand works.

Also, look at picture #1 ... The engine is so hot that the girl on the wall took all her cloats off ... He he he.

And on picture #3 ... Well, that me. Nice to meet you guys ...

There you have it Raymond, that how hot this engine is at full power. When I took temperature reading at the exhaust, on picture #3, the meter when "OL" and the probe is 2000 °F capable.

This is yesterday's run and we did that ... Guess were? ... In a paint shop. Yes... In a paint shop, with paint, solvent, tinner, acide ... Name it, it was there ... He he he.

WARNING ... Children, do not attemp to do that at home. Hummmm ... On second taugh, it would probably be safer at home then were we did it. Anyway .. DON'T FOLLOW OUR EXEMPLE.

He he he ...... Cya,

Luc

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Post by Viv » Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:26 pm

We were being nice and not mentioning the tins of paint stacked on the bench behind the red hot engine:-)

We also did not mention that you were not whering ear defenders! that engine must be running 120db I bet you could still hear it when it was switched off afterwards:-(

Viv
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130R power failure

Post by luc » Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:31 pm

Hi Viv,

Nice to see you back. Where were you, chassing girls again? ... he he he.
A comment that is made when these engine are run up is that they honk and that the holes have to be drilled in the right places to get them to work
Viv... I understand what you say ... But a "Honk sound" in UK is probably not like a "Honk sound" in Canada ... he he he. Get me a sample so I can listen and compare.

As for having a soud wizard to come here and do the recording ... Well my guess. I would be the first one welcome him.

If you guys know a software that I can download ... I will be more then happy to redo the recording.

Cya,


Luc

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Re: 130R power failure

Post by Viv » Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:53 pm

Luc wrote:Hi Viv,

Nice to see you back. Where were you, chassing girls again? ... he he he.
A comment that is made when these engine are run up is that they honk and that the holes have to be drilled in the right places to get them to work
Viv... I understand what you say ... But a "Honk sound" in UK is probably not like a "Honk sound" in Canada ... he he he. Get me a sample so I can listen and compare.

As for having a soud wizard to come here and do the recording ... Well my guess. I would be the first one welcome him.

If you guys know a software that I can download ... I will be more then happy to redo the recording.
Cya,
Luc
I only have time to chase my partner:-) more than that I would never admit to:-)

As to the honking, well we have the canada goose as a regular visitar here in the UK so we could standardise on that as the an ISO standard honk:-0

Its not the software that is so much of a problem its the recording, it needs a good mike and preamp that wont get overloaded by the sound level.

The last recording was almost a squere wave it was so clipped:-) My MAC laptop runnig Amadeus ll would do a real time FFT of the engine so it would be possible to tune it from just looking at the display, but it needs a good sound source to work from.

You can also do the same with a cold engine by feeding white noise to a loadspeaker then running the program to see were the engine resonates.

We do this when we are building engines to double check things, after all each part of a violine has its own resonant frequency, each of those adds up to the tone of the complete instrument, the same is true of pulse jets and pressure jets.

I would come over have a look myself but I am of skiing in France next week (for the first time! so there may be injuries to come back with:-), Dave is just down the road from you and has offered to come up with a good mikerophone, Graham can offer good advice and do an FFT run as well as Nick.

Viv
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139R power failure

Post by luc » Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:29 pm

Okey,

this will be a long post, adreesing many issue, front many of your responses.

Raymond,

As for the engine running to rich. The way I see it, if we have all the feul going in, is probably because of the nozzle. We have re-measured the nozzle and it is .254" dia. (.0506 area). Afterwhat, we decided to heat it up and measure it @ 1200 °F, to verify his thermal expansion. The result was .258" @ 1200 °F (.0522 area).

Our next step will be to redesing the nozzle tube for being able to interchange nozzles. We will probably try different sizes. But next to that, I don't know why this engine would run to rich, all the parts (i.e: stage 1, 2, 3 and the engine) are exactly as per Gluhareff drawings.

Viv,

First, on that running like on all the runnings, I wear ear plugs. You know, those little yellom foam plugs ... he he he. Bye the way "Mikerophone" or "microphone" ... he he he.

As for the flame front, it is positionned between the little hole and the chamber itself. I will try to attach a running we did on one evening. You guys might see things in that, that I don't see.

As for accoustic speaking. Accoustic for me, is like french for you guys ... I understand **** all in that and I don't have a slitest idear what resonance is or "Honk". For me, this thing is noisy like hell and it detonate so many time in a second.

Dave,

You are more then welcome to bring your accoustic wizdom over here. Maybe you could teach us a few things on that field.

One thing I would like to know. If you guys compare the CFD simulation, with the running results and the Gluey theory. Where does the conclusion point to.

Raymond ... You mentioned that front the CFD results, it seem that the fuel flow is way to high and look what the results showed us yesterday (More fuel then suppose to). Maybe Gluhareff kept something from all of us or maybe it is the peples that took over his drawing and works.

With Viv theory, compared to Gluey patent document, we are almost positive now that 130 pounds is at 700 psig. and the graphic and logic point to that.

I am starting to realize that what we see in the Gluey manual (Bye the way ... Manual assembled for marketing purposes) is pure marketing pictures, numbers and text assembled for one reasons, sell engines. Who did that, have no damn idear what he was doing, except, making it look good. I magine ... You have that nice engine concept, that you can do nothing with it because it is a tip jet and need a pressure that no one can deliver, but you want to sell this thing and make money with it ... What do you do?

You guys come to your own conclusions, but I am begining to see the picture here. I beleive that what is in the manual is pure Bull**** or dust in our eyes.

I beleive that we have to come up with our own numbers and take the scentific approach and solve this thing, what ever it take to do it. Even if it mean, changing the drawings dimenssions.

One thing I want to point out to you guys ... The drawings I have here, were sold to me by Vortech or Winspire. I have just noticed (Viv, look at the copy I have sent you) that the copyright of those drawings are to Robert Q. Riley. Now, if you talk to both party, you will find out that they bitch on each other to be Gluhareff design tiefs.

If you talk to Craig Wall about this, he will tell you that Eugene drawings, engines and concept was spread apart by a familly war. Wich was confirm to me personnaly by Irina Gluhareff, Eugene's daugther.

I amd starting to beleive that this war as its toll on Eugene concept and we have work to do guys.

I would suggest that one of you guys (Not me because I don't have the brain to do that) do a recap. on was done up to now and redirect our efforts to solve this thing. I will be glad to provide the resources.

Sorry for the long posting,

Cya,

Luc

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Post by Viv » Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:11 pm

Ok on the long post that answers a lot, if it has to be mounted on a blade tip to get the rated thrust then we not only need 700psi but ram air as well!

That one has been worrying me a little since I suggested the blade thing as a possible answer.

Viv
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Post by Mike Everman » Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:44 pm

True, the ram air due to centrifugal forces is predictable, but most likely pales is comparison to the velocity head, which is completely dependent on how the blade-wise shrouding about the stacks was done, so picture detail of this installation would be helpful, to say the least, if you're going as far as modelling.
While Mr. Glu was a creative guy, it is a very difficult setup to determine thrust output on a whirly-gig like this, and I doubt it was actually done. Wind-tunnel would tell only part of the story.

On a fuel note, there's a rotor tip ram-jet paper around here somewhere that had the liquid fuel reaching pressures at the tip far in excess of 700psi at some likely rpm for rotor blades, by the way.
Mike
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130R power failure

Post by luc » Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:11 pm

Hi again guys,
so picture detail of this installation would be helpful, to say the least, if you're going as far as modelling
Mike ... In the Gluey manual, there is a picture how Eugene did his tip blade mounting and the shroud model. Viv, you have that picture in the manual I have sent you.

As for ram air, it is very easy to do. There is nothing that a good blower with an electric motor can do.

I go back to what I said previously today. We have to come to a conclusion on why is that engine is not pushing. If we come to the conclusion that psig. and ram is the problem, then we can designed something that will duplicate the 700 psig. condition. Afterwhat, if we fall in the problem were more air is needed (Prooven, not speculated) then it will be very easy to fix. Will just have to calculate the CFMs created by a spinning blade, select an air duct/blower/motor that will produce such CFMs. As for having almost no ram air at idle and full ram at max power, this will be easelly done with a bleed valve or bleed trap.

Almost all todays modern jet engine have bleed valve to compensate compressed air ratio at different power settings.

But first ... We need to to conclude. We have alot of data now, we just have to sort it out.

Cya Guys,

Luc .................Out

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