Gluhareff 130R power failure issue still open ... Any Idear?

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Mark
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Post by Mark » Tue Dec 09, 2003 5:33 am

The pressure doesn't increase unless you heat the propane bottle, but the velocity increases to the speed of sound at the higher temperature. This increase is proportional to the square root of the temperature, ie, quadrupling the temperature will result in a doubling of the velocity. For example at approximately 300 degrees Kelvin, room temperature, the velocity will be 1/2 that of 1200 degrees Kelvin.
Also the propane is so very hot that it reacts with the air much faster, burn time can decrease with a heated fuel/air mixture.
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Post by Viv » Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:17 am

A Cut and past from the old forum

Viv


milisavljevic wrote :

>Ben, I hope this is helpful:
>
>The surface temperature required to exceed the visual threshhold in humans (dim red heat) is about 650C (1200F). At temperatures near 750C (1400F), surfaces will appear orange-red (what we usually mean by "red hot"), and at temperatures near 900C (1650F), surfaces will start to appear orange-yellow in colour.
>
>Of course, brightness is not a property of temperature, but of intensity: a "cherry-red" tailpipe, brightly glowing for many centimeters in span, is still indicating a surface temperature of about 700C (1300F).
>
>----- -----
>
>>Ben Brockert wrote :
>>Anyone ever measured the temperature of the post-coil fuel temperature in a Gluey and compared it to the flame temperature near the coils in the engine, just to see how good the heat transfer was?
>
>craig wall wrote:
>>I can tell you this much, Ben: if you run a Gluey long enough, the entire downstream section- the tube and the intake injector nozzle- is glowing red hot- at least at night. That's after about a 3 minute run. So I'd say it was pretty hot...
>>That's with the coil made to plans, for the G8-2-23.


Just for those of you who are a little confused, Ben asked about the propane temperature after it passed through the heat exchanger coils and before it was injected into the engine intake.

The reason many Gluhareffs fail to perform is that the builders have substituted thicker wall tubing in the heat exchanger coils.

The compression in the intake and hence the efficiency is dependent on the speed of sound in the hot propane, since that is the limit of the gas velocity and thus momentum as it exits the injector nozzle. That in turn is dependent on the temperature of the hot propane, so getting thinwall tubing for the coils and getting the propane really HOT before injection is of SUPREME importance.

More Glueys have been laid waste by tubing substitution than any other reason.

Craig
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luc
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Post by luc » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:04 pm

Okey guys,

Read this carefully. First, I would like to thank you all for your inetrest in the matter. Now, I have noted in the replys that some of you still see this thing as a backyard toy. Don't forget that this machine is intended for industrial use. So please ... Consider this, before making any reply.

As for Craig Wall ... Yes I have contacted him and he was clear with me that the only one that could realy take 130 pnds out of this engine, Eugene him self. Craig told me that if you get 40 to 45 pounds out of this, consider your self fortunate. We actually did 60, we saw 82 once and 112 after. We were so aimed at this damn 130 pnds, that we were having succes without knowing it.

For all who did not understand me at first, here are the specifications and what we must stick to if we are to solve this:
1) 130R pressure jet (No Pulse jet or other engine type)
2) Commercial liquid propane supplied at 165 psig.
3) Normal operating temperature between -10°C (14°F) to -40°C (-40°F)

Now ... One of you mentioned something about the intake stack to be out of proportion due to the low temperature. Well ... That is exactly the type of info I need. But try to back your theories with fact, proof or calculations. Don't forget, I have the Gluharef manual and the calculations for the original engine.

If we all go on suposition and only assume things, this forum can get to be a mille long before we accomplish something.

Please ... Give me fact, calculations, proof or a prooven 130 pounder engine.

Thanks again.

Luc

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Post by luc » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:16 pm

Hoooo ... Bye the way.

The temperature mesuements at tail pipe while engine warm-up was 1950°F

The temperature mesuements at tail pipe while engine at full power was 1750°F

Ambiant temperature was 19°F

It is very difficult to measure real nozzle temperature without disruting the flow pathern and detuning the engine. In our next start up, will try to measure the nozzle temperature.

Cya later

Luc

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Post by Viv » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:25 pm

Luc wrote:Okey guys,

Don't forget that this machine is intended for industrial use. So please ... Consider this, before making any reply.

For all who did not understand me at first, here are the specifications and what we must stick to if we are to solve this:
1) 130R pressure jet (No Pulse jet or other engine type)
2) Commercial liquid propane supplied at 165 psig.
3) Normal operating temperature between -10°C (14°F) to -40°C (-40°F)

Now ... One of you mentioned something about the intake stack to be out of proportion due to the low temperature. Well ... That is exactly the type of info I need. But try to back your theories with fact, proof or calculations. Don't forget, I have the Gluharef manual and the calculations for the original engine.

If we all go on suposition and only assume things, this forum can get to be a mille long before we accomplish something.

Please ... Give me fact, calculations, proof or a prooven 130 pounder engine.

Thanks again.

Luc
Ok you know the temperature range and you have the manuel and the formula to do the calculation, I don't so you will have to do the maths yourself and as you say it is a comercial project.

Why are you fixed on 165psi for the gas pressure?

Whats the gas temperature at the nozzle?

Do a good quality sound recording of the engine running (aif) and mail it too me.

Are you running the engine in a building? have you tried it outside?

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Post by Viv » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:26 pm

Luc wrote:Hoooo ... Bye the way.

The temperature mesuements at tail pipe while engine warm-up was 1950°F

The temperature mesuements at tail pipe while engine at full power was 1750°F

Ambiant temperature was 19°F

It is very difficult to measure real nozzle temperature without disruting the flow pathern and detuning the engine. In our next start up, will try to measure the nozzle temperature.

Cya later

Luc
ooops missed this as I was answering the other post

Viv
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Post by Viv » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:51 pm

Luc wrote:Hoooo ... Bye the way.

The temperature mesuements at tail pipe while engine warm-up was 1950°F

The temperature mesuements at tail pipe while engine at full power was 1750°F

Ambiant temperature was 19°F

It is very difficult to measure real nozzle temperature without disruting the flow pathern and detuning the engine. In our next start up, will try to measure the nozzle temperature.

Cya later

Luc
Well the only information I have quotes a temperature of 3600f in the combustion zone and 1200f at the fuel nozzle.

You seem to be missing about 1600f! so i wonder were it is?

Original Gluey measurment wrong or inflated. possible

Tail pipe and combustion zone temperatures radically differant. not likely as videos show even temperature distrabution.

so can you measure the temperature in the combustion zone near the coils.

Can you measure the fuel temperature at or even near the nozzle.

The basic questions need answering first before looking at tuning the intake stacks and flame front position.

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Post by luc » Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:30 pm

Okey ....

I have ordered 3 thermocouple capable of 2000°F.

Probe #1 will be for fuel temperature before the coils
Probe #2 will be positioned in the engine combustion chamber and between the coils, for coils physical temperature.
Probe #3 will be position inside the nozzle cavity, were Eugene use to position his pressure gauge.

I will come back to you with the results at full power operation.

As for why 165 psig. is simple ... Because a 130R is rated at 165 psig. And also, because a single pump capable of 165 psi delta, with 0 head pressure (Since propane losse his evaporation caracteristic at low temp.)and in the Chryogenic application is aprx. $10,000.00
2 pumps, with each a 100 psi delta, connected one into the other (100+100-pressure lost=supply pressure) is aprx. $7,000.00.
Any additional 10 psig. can cost hundreds and hundreds of dollars more
So ... The maximum I can do with that pump stack is 200 psig. and that is if I am close to the engine. At one point, the reservoir and pumps was at 200 feet from the engine for safety reasons and we lost 50 psig. just there.

So... Now you know

I will send more data later.

Cya

Luc

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Post by Viv » Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:42 pm

Luc wrote:Okey ....

I have ordered 3 thermocouple capable of 2000°F.

Probe #1 will be for fuel temperature before the coils
Probe #2 will be positioned in the engine combustion chamber and between the coils, for coils physical temperature.
Probe #3 will be position inside the nozzle cavity, were Eugene use to position his pressure gauge.

I will come back to you with the results at full power operation.

As for why 165 psig. is simple ... Because a 130R is rated at 165 psig. And also, because a single pump capable of 165 psi delta, with 0 head pressure (Since propane losse his evaporation caracteristic at low temp.)and in the Chryogenic application is aprx. $10,000.00
2 pumps, with each a 100 psi delta, connected one into the other (100+100-pressure lost=supply pressure) is aprx. $7,000.00.
Any additional 10 psig. can cost hundreds and hundreds of dollars more
So ... The maximum I can do with that pump stack is 200 psig. and that is if I am close to the engine. At one point, the reservoir and pumps was at 200 feet from the engine for safety reasons and we lost 50 psig. just there.

So... Now you know

I will send more data later.

Cya

Luc
Hi Luc

Can I just tie you down on the units you are using, you say 2000f for the new thermocouples but the chamber temperature Eugene quotes is 3600f, or did you mean 2000c witch is about 3600f.

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Post by Viv » Sun Jan 11, 2004 4:15 pm

How are you getting on with your project Luc?

Still waiting for some feedback from your last posts

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Gluhareff 130R power failure

Post by luc » Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:27 pm

Okey Guys .... I am back with more results.

I will separate de results in steps. The steps will be "Start-up", "Warm-up" and "Max Power".

The test were done in a hudge test cell and the ambiant temperature was 65°F.

Start-Up:
Propane pressure = 50 psi.
Thrust indicated = 17 pounds
Propane Temperature = 50°F (509.67°R) at Coils entrance.
Chamber Temperature = 1950°F (2409.67R) Inside chamber between coils
Nozzle temperature = 950°F (1409.67R) Just before Nozzle tip

Warm-up :
Propane pressure = 80 psi.
Thrust indicated = 21 pounds
Propane Temperature = 50°F (509.67°R)
Chamber Temperature = Over limit (Thermocouple are 2000°F capable)
Nozzle temperature = 1200°F (1659.67R)

Max-power :
Propane pressure = 225 psi.
Thrust indicated = 48 pounds
Propane Temperature = 50°F (509.67°R)
Chamber Temperature = Over limit (Thermocouple are 2000°F capable)
Nozzle temperature = 1193°F (1652.67R)

This engine look more then normal to me. I am starting to really beleive that all this is nothing then a marketing lie. And who in is backyard could really tell the difference between 45 pounds and 130. As long as this thing push, that is probably all they care about.

But for use ... It is clear now ... The 130R is just a model number and it got nothing to do with what it can deliver in thrust.

So ... Unless I am missing something ... Will have to find a new way or live with that flaw.

Regards,

Luc



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Post by Stephen H » Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:34 pm

bad luck!! woulda been great to see one of these things actually go full bore!!

Stephen

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Post by Viv » Sun Jan 18, 2004 1:32 pm

Dear Luc

I have read your reply and am having a think about it, I don't think we should write it off as a no go though.

Your figures indicate that the heat exchanger is working better than I thought but that just rules it out as a problem.

Temperature and pressure are critical from reading the patent but the next thing is what speed is being attained by the gas exiting the nozzle.

From my understanding if the nozzle is not producing maximum velocity of the gas stream then you will get very low thrust figures

Next then is the tuning of the stacks, I have an idea this can be done using the sound anlysis software we have been using on the pulse jets but we will need some heavy input from Graham Williams about the recording technique.

Can you tell me what position the flame front occcupys in the last cone? is it at the bottom of the cone near the combustion chamber?

I will post more later.

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Post by Viv » Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:05 am

I have asked a question over on the rocket forum about nozzle design as I think this is the next thing to clear up as a possible cause of the low thrust (still assuming it can do high thrust that is)

The thread is on http://panther.msrootserve.com/~admin11 ... =2632#2632

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Metering disk?

Post by Dave » Mon Jan 19, 2004 12:59 pm

I may have missed this somewhere in your discussion, but I do not remember any discussion about the metering disk at the fuel inlet to the heat exchanger. From conversations I have had with builders of the engine, this was a very important, but often overlooked part. Fuel inlet pressure to the coil is not as important as the pressure that actually makes it to the nozzle. What is the size of the opening on your metering disk, have you tried changing it and are you measuring fuel pressure at both the fuel inlet to the heat exchanger and at the nozzle?
Dave

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