my tipjet ultralight copter

Moderator: Mike Everman

Chris McDonald
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:01 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: NY, USA

my tipjet ultralight copter

Post by Chris McDonald » Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:03 am

Gentlemen,
in '85 my aeroscience project was to build a USA FAR part 103 ultralight helicopter. copter came out great. 21 ft rotor span with a nice working fuel transfer hub. all the mechanical parts work nice. i built two pairs of crude jet engines for it. the big pulse jets i really failed on. the ramjets were as crude if not worse but they did spin the rotors up with just me starting the rotor by reaching up and grabbing it and tossing it over. then i'd climb in give it fuel and spark and they would pop off every time and never flamed out. did not make by far lift rpm but it was impressive. just so you know i will be adding a small gas engine for rotor spool up and fuel pump.
you folks are nice people. it pained me to read old forums about a making an engine test bed when i have one right here. any thoughts are always welcome all my friends share information 100% (nothing ventured = nothing gained)
i think i am favorable to Stan Hillers 8RJ2B ramjets. i could even use his smaller ones since i'm so underweight of the Hornet.
i know there is a guy from your forum who was helping restore a Hiller ram jet Hornet and you all can imagine how much i'd like to talk to him.
peace, power & progress,
chris

Mike Everman
Posts: 4930
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:25 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: santa barbara, CA
Contact:

Re: my tipjet ultralight copter

Post by Mike Everman » Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:39 am

Welcome, Chris. Cool project to be sure! Tip jet helicopters always give me the willies, even though the idea IS compelling. The weight or was it drag or both out there severely hampering autorotation and all. When you haven't got autorotation, you get the willies, and probably very hurt, ha ah ha.
Didn't Hiller eventually move to a cold jet system to reduce the drag on the rotors? Can't remember.
Mike
__________________________
Follow my technical science blog at: http://mikeeverman.com/
Get alerts for the above on twitter at: http://twitter.com/mikeeverman

steve
Posts: 1029
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:29 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: Clinton Conneticut / Melbourne Flordia
Contact:

Re: my tipjet ultralight copter

Post by steve » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:46 am

Do you have any pictures of it- specifically the engines? I would really like to see them!
Image

Chris McDonald
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:01 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: NY, USA

Re: my tipjet ultralight copter

Post by Chris McDonald » Sun Dec 19, 2004 2:34 am

Thanks for your interest. There is now a photo of my heli to view in my gallery. i got rid of those engines. too low power. i need to find plans to build something better for it. i would like to find out about Hiller ram jets.

Mike Everman
Posts: 4930
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:25 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: santa barbara, CA
Contact:

Re: my tipjet ultralight copter

Post by Mike Everman » Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:49 am

Check US 5,934,973. Seems a nice bit of ramjet work.
Mike
__________________________
Follow my technical science blog at: http://mikeeverman.com/
Get alerts for the above on twitter at: http://twitter.com/mikeeverman

Chris McDonald
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:01 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: NY, USA

Re: my tipjet ultralight copter

Post by Chris McDonald » Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:46 pm

Mike,
thank you so much! that patent # must be off by a digit because it came up as a microchip fab tool. no matter. you can recheck it. main thing is you steered me to the u.s. patent office website and i am loving it! i can wallpaper my whole machine/weld shop with jet engine drawings soon and that's a lot of wall. #5,934,973 is an early 90's date. check it again. i still want to see it. other around that time are 5,351,480 and 5,946,904 nice stuff. i will enjoy working my way back to the days of Stan Hiller looking at so many things. probably the answers to everyone's tech questions are all there scattered through the many patent designs. "often wrong" maybe but "never unsure" deffinately : ) thanks!

Bruno Ogorelec
Posts: 3542
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 7:31 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

Re: my tipjet ultralight copter

Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:58 am

Chris,

That's why I like this site. There's few things that have to do with jet propulsion that someone in this forum will not know -- and he will be willing to share the knowledge with you. One of the few perfectly civilized places in the wild universe.

Mike Everman
Posts: 4930
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:25 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: santa barbara, CA
Contact:

Re: my tipjet ultralight copter

Post by Mike Everman » Mon Dec 20, 2004 4:18 pm

Yes, this is quite a civilized community. It's like discovering a section of my brain I can use all of a sudden.

Chris, that patent number should have been 5,934,873 by Leonard M. Greene
Mike
__________________________
Follow my technical science blog at: http://mikeeverman.com/
Get alerts for the above on twitter at: http://twitter.com/mikeeverman

Chris McDonald
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:01 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: NY, USA

Re: my tipjet ultralight copter

Post by Chris McDonald » Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:58 pm

Mike,
that new patent # worked and i am looking at a really great re-do of Stan Hiller's ideas. i will try to find a kind soul at the Hiller museum in CA that might let slip some original patent #'s so i can compare the evolution of the 8RJ2B ramjets. i have friends up here at the Empire State Aeroscience Museum who still have questions about tipjet history. they are next door to the old General Electric R&D center where one of the largest in the world heavy lift tip jet copter was put together and tested. they have a Hornet sized rotor blade with an early ramjet on it. they are still scratching their heads over who built it. nice people though and i will turn over all my historical findings to them.
might be a while before i cut metal again i have to do the research. in the mean time i get to fly shotgun in a '98 fresh Schweizer 300c heli and shoot video with my friend. that is one nice ride!
thanks again,
chris

luc
Posts: 768
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:05 pm
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: my tipjet ultralight copter

Post by luc » Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:28 am

Hi Chris,

I have a question that puzzle me ....

Why don't you consider using a "Gluhareff" pressure jet, which you know, was soulerly design for that application of yours.

That question his actually in the back of my mind since I have started reading your topic.

Just curious ...

Cya,

Luc
Luc
Designer & Inventor

Tom
Posts: 603
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2003 12:55 pm
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: UK

Re: my tipjet ultralight copter

Post by Tom » Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:56 am

Luc - Is it just me, or would a ramjet just be easier in terms of fabrication?
Experience speaks more then hypothesizing ever can. More-so in chemistry.

Chris McDonald
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:01 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: NY, USA

Re: my tipjet ultralight copter

Post by Chris McDonald » Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:19 am

Hey Luc, Hey Coffee,
yes i have the Gluhareff pressure jet prints. i have always suspected them to be flawed in some way and yeah that is a lot of metal forming for the intakes. Luc you are right, that copter design is from some Gluhareff fans. take a look at the ramjet Mike sent me to. i can chop out a section of my blades for that extra air intake kind of like Gluie's right angle feed pressure jet. might help keep the cool stuff cool : ) Luc, i'm glad to hear from you. i know you work the bugs out of things. if somebody had the right fix for Gene Gluhareff's design and could stamp out those critical intake parts everyone would want a kit.
all the best,
chris

luc
Posts: 768
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:05 pm
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: my tipjet ultralight copter

Post by luc » Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:27 am

Hi Coffee,
Luc - Is it just me, or would a ramjet just be easier in terms of fabrication?
No ... indeed your are correct in term of fabrication.

But the RAM jet has a few draw back where it need to be propelled in air to first start and correct me if I am wrong but the inlet air has to be supersonic for it to operate properly. So, I hardly imagine Chris turning his rotor by hand until he is exausted for this thing to start.

Also, throttle capabilities can be an issue here when it's gona be time to fly his chopper, where a pressure jet is fully throttlable.

I don't know if one of you ever flew a chopper, but I did years ago, where I had a go at a BELL 47 only for a lift-off, move it 100 feets and land it. Beleive me, that was one of the hardest thing I did just to keep it stable.

What I learned from that experience it that every time you are doing something in terms of movement, you need to corect all 4 attitude plus your power settings ... AT ONCE.

So, if you want to go forward you need to :

1) Pitch that rotor forward
2) Doing so, the chopper will then glide down torward the ground.
3) So you need to give more pitch to those blade but the rotor will slow down.
4) So, you need to put more power (Throttle), then this rotor will bite in the air and induce a Yaw movment to the chopper.
5) You need to correct that with your tail rotor.

ALL AT ONCE ....

The power settings is a very important. If you look inside a chopper cockpit, you will find the stick for pitch and roll, 2 pedals for Yaw, and the collective stick for rotor pitch control. On that stick, you will notice a motorcycle bick like handle, which is the engine power setting. Now ask your self why they have put that setting there, where it is always under pilot controls.

So indeed, I was not thinking easy fabrication, I was thinking autonomous, easy to start (And re-start in case of a stall), throttle capabilities ... Hooo, and also aerodynamic (The pointed nose cone).

Don't mistake me by my answers. Pressure jets is not the only word I have in my mouth. But maybe most of my answers could point out to the fact that the pressure jet is a very nice, versatile, easy to start and maintnance free design.

Next to that ... It is all up to the user.

Cya,

Luc
Luc
Designer & Inventor

luc
Posts: 768
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:05 pm
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: my tipjet ultralight copter

Post by luc » Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:09 pm

Hi Chris,

Chris wrote
Luc, i'm glad to hear from you. i know you work the bugs out of things. if somebody had the right fix for Gene Gluhareff's design and could stamp out those critical intake parts everyone would want a kit.
I know peoples are waiting to finally get those real working plans and kit and I also know they have probably given up on us, all this taking alot of time. Beleive me, Viv and I are the first to be very impatient with all this process. We have so much work to do with all this, that would probably have work to hire 4 or 5 of you guys for a months. The work load is just to big, but we are getting there.

Actually, what we don't want to do is to make the same mistake Eugene did and have a bunch of sharks jump on those last modifications for their own profits and prevent you guys from using those.

Beleive me, Viv and I are HITCHING to have you guys benefits from those last mods, but just can't for now. When we will be done with all this, the pressure jet will be an easy and cheaper engine to get or build, and it will be a working one.

So, if a bunch of you guys want to travel all the way here, to give a new and very promissing buisness a hand ... You guys are more then welcome.

If you guys knew all we have found ... Some of you would probably travelling already. And beleive me, with the plans Viv and I have made ... At the end, It is you guys that will benefit from all this.

Hang on budy ... Soon we will be right at your side for this project of yours, if you need us.

Cya,

Luc
Luc
Designer & Inventor

Bruno Ogorelec
Posts: 3542
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 7:31 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

Re: my tipjet ultralight copter

Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:29 pm

Viv, Luc,

In a nutshell, now that you have cracked the secret of the pressure jet, what do you think about it?

Obviously, you find it a good engine, or you wouldn't be wasting your effort on it, but just how good?

For instance, if someone wanted to power a machine with a jet engine of between 50 and 100 lbs thrust and wanted to build the engine himself, in a moderately well equipped garage or basement workshop, what would your verdict be?

Build a Viv/Luc/Gluey pressure jet? A Lockwood? A big Chinese? An Escopette? (Assuming that all the plans were available in correct form.)

Post Reply