M500 build log

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metiz
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Re: M500 build log

Post by metiz » Fri May 31, 2013 11:41 pm

Hey Joe,

I just sealed the deal on some spray nozzles. max 3.9L/min @ 800kPa. How viscosity, speed and pipe roughness affect laminar/ turbulent flow, I don't know for sure. I'd have to review the 'ol moody diagrams and thermodynamics 2 from school :)
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John Hasler
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Re: M500 build log

Post by John Hasler » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:35 pm

Warn us when you are going to fire that thing up so that we can don our hearing protection.

ace_fedde
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Re: M500 build log

Post by ace_fedde » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:40 pm

I just found two pumps, one with motor and one without.
The one with motor is 11l/min, the other one 8l/min. You can easily decrease these numbers with a bypass valve.
The motor is now set for 3-phase 380 volts. I need to now what capacitor I need to make it 1-phase 220 volts. Anybody?

These pumps are usually used at pressure's like 150 to 200 bars, but don't have to. Also these numbers are easily decreased with a pressure/bypass valve.
pompen.jpg
Fedde
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metiz
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Re: M500 build log

Post by metiz » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:52 pm

Hey Fedde

Those are some beefy pumps! Is the pump without motor also electrically driven?

Your idea about pessure cleaners is pretty good actually. Problem is, they take quite a bit of power to run, 2kW and up, but I suppose your pumps are no different. What's more economical: a bunch of 12v batteries and an inverter or a generator?
Think your pumps, and pressure cleaner pumps, can take fuel? Anyone else want to chime in?
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ace_fedde
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Re: M500 build log

Post by ace_fedde » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:16 pm

Metiz,

The other pump is normally also electric driven, but also an IC- engine could be used (or even steam :D ).

The pumps have metal or ceramic pistons, and plastic/metal valves. I don't see why they wouldn't work with fuel.

2 kW would be for a pump that's working at 150-200 bar with 10-12l/min.
We will work at 10 bars, with a slightly smaller pump, or even a much smaller pump if you think about the small home patio/terace cleaners (80 bar, 5 l/min).

I used to feed a few neon tubes (TL ) with a battery and an inverter. It would only last for half an our or a bit more. I think a small generator would be best.

Anyone knows anything about capacitors for electric motors?

Fedde
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metiz
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Re: M500 build log

Post by metiz » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:49 pm

Hey Fedde,

There's more than enough pressure in those high pressure cleaners, that's for sure, but I also need 10l/min. I'm a bit rusty on the pump front, but decreasing flow rate should be easy with just some sort of bypass, but is is possible to sacrifice pressure for more flow?

Is it ok if I copy paste the last few posts to the JATO forum? There are a few more people still active there
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Re: M500 build log

Post by PyroJoe » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:46 pm

metiz,
could you pressurize the liquid fuel with propane before it is input into the pump? The mechanical pump would become a second stage then. If that concept worked it would allow both reasonably high volume and high pressure. Thoughts?

ace_fedde
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Re: M500 build log

Post by ace_fedde » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:39 pm

Metiz,

The motorized pump on my photo delivers 11l/min, that should be enough. At 10 bars the electrical power needed and taken will be much much lower. If needed I even have larger pumps if needed.
Displacement doesn't change, so the flow stays the same at lower pressures.
You wil need two bypasses. One with a spring, working like a pressure regulator (I have them also), and a simple valve to adjust the flow (feeding back into the reservoir).

If you make the setup as Joe describes, you will need even less electrical power. The pump then only serves to maintain constant pressure, but the fuels will get mixed up. You will need an LPG tank for propane, followed with an LPG tank with Diesel, and then the pump.

Fedde
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metiz
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Re: M500 build log

Post by metiz » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:47 pm

Fedde and Joe,

If at all possible I want to skip using propane in any shape or form. It just ads more complexity to an already realy complex system. Fedde, if your pump goes up to 11L than that should be plenty.
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Re: M500 build log

Post by tufty » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:19 pm

<spinal tap>
These go to 11
</spinal tap>

metiz
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Re: M500 build log

Post by metiz » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:47 pm

Posted some of this thread on the JATO forum, one reply: "You are going to need more than a capacitor to make your motor work.You are most likely going to need an inverter that changes 1 phase into 3 phase
the easiest and least expensive way to go,I think,and I may be sadly mistaken,is to locate a 220v 1 phase motor with that same frame.Just a thought
John"
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PyroJoe
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Re: M500 build log

Post by PyroJoe » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:27 pm

Maybe you could find a gasoline 3 phase welding machine to tap in to?

Still it would probably be easier to utilize several 12 volt automotive rollervane pumps (approx. 7 bar) and slightly increase the input pressure if needed.

metiz
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Re: M500 build log

Post by metiz » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:40 pm

link to an example?
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PyroJoe
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Re: M500 build log

Post by PyroJoe » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:04 pm


metiz
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Re: M500 build log

Post by metiz » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:47 pm

Wolfdragon "Yeah... making a 3 phase motor run on one phase isn't pretty, but it is possible... That being said you will find it easier to get another motor of the correct frame type to bolt on the pump to.


If you are dying to know how, look up "3 phase rotary converter" and "3 phase converter" basically you take single phase L1 and L2 (which are 180 degrees out of phase, this double the voltage for L1 to L2 vs L1 or L2 to neutral/ground) and put that into the motor and use a capacitor from L1 to "L3" and L2 to "L3", you ten have pseudo 3 phase that you can take off from that motor to go into another motor... so you need to get say a 1/4 to 1/2 HP 3 phase motor for your converter and then that will let you spin the one you have now

See what I mean by not pretty?"

Racket "Might be easier to get a 24/36/48/60 volt DC motor from these guys ........ http://www.electricscooterparts.com"
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