M500 build log
Moderator: Mike Everman
Re: M500 build log
Hey Joe,
I just sealed the deal on some spray nozzles. max 3.9L/min @ 800kPa. How viscosity, speed and pipe roughness affect laminar/ turbulent flow, I don't know for sure. I'd have to review the 'ol moody diagrams and thermodynamics 2 from school
I just sealed the deal on some spray nozzles. max 3.9L/min @ 800kPa. How viscosity, speed and pipe roughness affect laminar/ turbulent flow, I don't know for sure. I'd have to review the 'ol moody diagrams and thermodynamics 2 from school
Quantify the world.
-
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:10 am
- Antipspambot question: 125
- Location: Wisconsin, USA
Re: M500 build log
Warn us when you are going to fire that thing up so that we can don our hearing protection.
-
- Posts: 421
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:26 pm
- Antipspambot question: 0
- Location: The Netherlands
Re: M500 build log
I just found two pumps, one with motor and one without.
The one with motor is 11l/min, the other one 8l/min. You can easily decrease these numbers with a bypass valve.
The motor is now set for 3-phase 380 volts. I need to now what capacitor I need to make it 1-phase 220 volts. Anybody?
These pumps are usually used at pressure's like 150 to 200 bars, but don't have to. Also these numbers are easily decreased with a pressure/bypass valve. Fedde
The one with motor is 11l/min, the other one 8l/min. You can easily decrease these numbers with a bypass valve.
The motor is now set for 3-phase 380 volts. I need to now what capacitor I need to make it 1-phase 220 volts. Anybody?
These pumps are usually used at pressure's like 150 to 200 bars, but don't have to. Also these numbers are easily decreased with a pressure/bypass valve. Fedde
Your scepticism is fuel for my brain.
Re: M500 build log
Hey Fedde
Those are some beefy pumps! Is the pump without motor also electrically driven?
Your idea about pessure cleaners is pretty good actually. Problem is, they take quite a bit of power to run, 2kW and up, but I suppose your pumps are no different. What's more economical: a bunch of 12v batteries and an inverter or a generator?
Think your pumps, and pressure cleaner pumps, can take fuel? Anyone else want to chime in?
Those are some beefy pumps! Is the pump without motor also electrically driven?
Your idea about pessure cleaners is pretty good actually. Problem is, they take quite a bit of power to run, 2kW and up, but I suppose your pumps are no different. What's more economical: a bunch of 12v batteries and an inverter or a generator?
Think your pumps, and pressure cleaner pumps, can take fuel? Anyone else want to chime in?
Quantify the world.
-
- Posts: 421
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:26 pm
- Antipspambot question: 0
- Location: The Netherlands
Re: M500 build log
Metiz,
The other pump is normally also electric driven, but also an IC- engine could be used (or even steam ).
The pumps have metal or ceramic pistons, and plastic/metal valves. I don't see why they wouldn't work with fuel.
2 kW would be for a pump that's working at 150-200 bar with 10-12l/min.
We will work at 10 bars, with a slightly smaller pump, or even a much smaller pump if you think about the small home patio/terace cleaners (80 bar, 5 l/min).
I used to feed a few neon tubes (TL ) with a battery and an inverter. It would only last for half an our or a bit more. I think a small generator would be best.
Anyone knows anything about capacitors for electric motors?
Fedde
The other pump is normally also electric driven, but also an IC- engine could be used (or even steam ).
The pumps have metal or ceramic pistons, and plastic/metal valves. I don't see why they wouldn't work with fuel.
2 kW would be for a pump that's working at 150-200 bar with 10-12l/min.
We will work at 10 bars, with a slightly smaller pump, or even a much smaller pump if you think about the small home patio/terace cleaners (80 bar, 5 l/min).
I used to feed a few neon tubes (TL ) with a battery and an inverter. It would only last for half an our or a bit more. I think a small generator would be best.
Anyone knows anything about capacitors for electric motors?
Fedde
Your scepticism is fuel for my brain.
Re: M500 build log
Hey Fedde,
There's more than enough pressure in those high pressure cleaners, that's for sure, but I also need 10l/min. I'm a bit rusty on the pump front, but decreasing flow rate should be easy with just some sort of bypass, but is is possible to sacrifice pressure for more flow?
Is it ok if I copy paste the last few posts to the JATO forum? There are a few more people still active there
There's more than enough pressure in those high pressure cleaners, that's for sure, but I also need 10l/min. I'm a bit rusty on the pump front, but decreasing flow rate should be easy with just some sort of bypass, but is is possible to sacrifice pressure for more flow?
Is it ok if I copy paste the last few posts to the JATO forum? There are a few more people still active there
Quantify the world.
Re: M500 build log
metiz,
could you pressurize the liquid fuel with propane before it is input into the pump? The mechanical pump would become a second stage then. If that concept worked it would allow both reasonably high volume and high pressure. Thoughts?
could you pressurize the liquid fuel with propane before it is input into the pump? The mechanical pump would become a second stage then. If that concept worked it would allow both reasonably high volume and high pressure. Thoughts?
-
- Posts: 421
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:26 pm
- Antipspambot question: 0
- Location: The Netherlands
Re: M500 build log
Metiz,
The motorized pump on my photo delivers 11l/min, that should be enough. At 10 bars the electrical power needed and taken will be much much lower. If needed I even have larger pumps if needed.
Displacement doesn't change, so the flow stays the same at lower pressures.
You wil need two bypasses. One with a spring, working like a pressure regulator (I have them also), and a simple valve to adjust the flow (feeding back into the reservoir).
If you make the setup as Joe describes, you will need even less electrical power. The pump then only serves to maintain constant pressure, but the fuels will get mixed up. You will need an LPG tank for propane, followed with an LPG tank with Diesel, and then the pump.
Fedde
The motorized pump on my photo delivers 11l/min, that should be enough. At 10 bars the electrical power needed and taken will be much much lower. If needed I even have larger pumps if needed.
Displacement doesn't change, so the flow stays the same at lower pressures.
You wil need two bypasses. One with a spring, working like a pressure regulator (I have them also), and a simple valve to adjust the flow (feeding back into the reservoir).
If you make the setup as Joe describes, you will need even less electrical power. The pump then only serves to maintain constant pressure, but the fuels will get mixed up. You will need an LPG tank for propane, followed with an LPG tank with Diesel, and then the pump.
Fedde
Your scepticism is fuel for my brain.
Re: M500 build log
Fedde and Joe,
If at all possible I want to skip using propane in any shape or form. It just ads more complexity to an already realy complex system. Fedde, if your pump goes up to 11L than that should be plenty.
If at all possible I want to skip using propane in any shape or form. It just ads more complexity to an already realy complex system. Fedde, if your pump goes up to 11L than that should be plenty.
Quantify the world.
-
- Posts: 887
- Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:12 pm
- Antipspambot question: 0
- Location: France
- Contact:
Re: M500 build log
<spinal tap>
These go to 11
</spinal tap>
These go to 11
</spinal tap>
Re: M500 build log
Posted some of this thread on the JATO forum, one reply: "You are going to need more than a capacitor to make your motor work.You are most likely going to need an inverter that changes 1 phase into 3 phase
the easiest and least expensive way to go,I think,and I may be sadly mistaken,is to locate a 220v 1 phase motor with that same frame.Just a thought
John"
the easiest and least expensive way to go,I think,and I may be sadly mistaken,is to locate a 220v 1 phase motor with that same frame.Just a thought
John"
Quantify the world.
Re: M500 build log
Maybe you could find a gasoline 3 phase welding machine to tap in to?
Still it would probably be easier to utilize several 12 volt automotive rollervane pumps (approx. 7 bar) and slightly increase the input pressure if needed.
Still it would probably be easier to utilize several 12 volt automotive rollervane pumps (approx. 7 bar) and slightly increase the input pressure if needed.
Re: M500 build log
Wolfdragon "Yeah... making a 3 phase motor run on one phase isn't pretty, but it is possible... That being said you will find it easier to get another motor of the correct frame type to bolt on the pump to.
If you are dying to know how, look up "3 phase rotary converter" and "3 phase converter" basically you take single phase L1 and L2 (which are 180 degrees out of phase, this double the voltage for L1 to L2 vs L1 or L2 to neutral/ground) and put that into the motor and use a capacitor from L1 to "L3" and L2 to "L3", you ten have pseudo 3 phase that you can take off from that motor to go into another motor... so you need to get say a 1/4 to 1/2 HP 3 phase motor for your converter and then that will let you spin the one you have now
See what I mean by not pretty?"
Racket "Might be easier to get a 24/36/48/60 volt DC motor from these guys ........ http://www.electricscooterparts.com"
If you are dying to know how, look up "3 phase rotary converter" and "3 phase converter" basically you take single phase L1 and L2 (which are 180 degrees out of phase, this double the voltage for L1 to L2 vs L1 or L2 to neutral/ground) and put that into the motor and use a capacitor from L1 to "L3" and L2 to "L3", you ten have pseudo 3 phase that you can take off from that motor to go into another motor... so you need to get say a 1/4 to 1/2 HP 3 phase motor for your converter and then that will let you spin the one you have now
See what I mean by not pretty?"
Racket "Might be easier to get a 24/36/48/60 volt DC motor from these guys ........ http://www.electricscooterparts.com"
Quantify the world.