Metal Fume Fever

[ZSartell]

Hello all,

I have not participated in this forum for a long time as I have been pursuing other hobbies (blacksmithing). I have a video of one of my pulse jets on You Tube and get many comments on it daily. Just moments ago I got a video response from some one that is selling a home built Lockwood type pulse jet. What troubled me was that he built it out of Galvanized pipe. I feel that the uneducated MUST be told to never heat/weld anything that has a coating on it unless they know EXACTLY what they are doing. Galvanized is another way to say Zinc Coated. Zinc fumes are very toxic and can accumulate in your body leading to permanent damage and later death. I know of one very experienced Blacksmith (Paw Paw Wilson) that died just a few years ago by sticking a galvanized pipe into his forge to "Burn" off the coating before forging it. A week later he became very sick and soon after died from Metal Fume Fever/Heavy Metal poisoning. This is not something to take lightly and if you ever have any symptoms after being exposed to zinc fumes, please seek medical attention immediately!

Also, some may tell you that all you need to do is drink a glass of milk and you will be fine. Any experienced welder has heard the rumors of how the calcium in milk will bond to the zinc and save you from certain death. THIS IS FALSE! IT IS NOTHING BUT AN OLD "WELDERS TALE". DO NOT BLOW THIS OFF BY DRINKING MILK, BUT INSTEAD SEEK MEDICAL ATTENTION!

[Viv]

Hey Mike

Its good advice and suitable to make a sticky in tools and construction don't ya think?

Viv

[Jutte]

Very important information.
In fact just about all the fumes off welding are bad for you.TIG can be bad as well.
You can get special masks/filters for welding - but they can be expensive- but are worth it.
Wearing filter masks are also a very good idea when grinding as well.
I cringe when I think of the crud etc that I was breathing in when I was
welding in the engineering work shop I used to work in.
Safety in the workshop is your responsibilty !

[Mark]

I recall an old chemistry book for young boys entitled "Simple Chemical Experiments" by Alfred Morgan. It was published way back in 1941 and has some things that wouldn't fly in today's world, nobody could take the responsibility. In the book there is one experiment on making Aluminum Flash Powder, the subtitle, An OUTDOOR Experiment. You mix it with potassium dichromate, a beautiful orange crystaline substance. "Do not lean over the mix when you fire it." ha
And in that there is good advice. I don't know too many things that are burning that are good to breathe. Chromium oxides being one of them. I wonder too with zinc if there aren't trace elements of lead or cadmium that augment the metal fume fever effect. Anyway, you can imagine any red or yellow hot metal is going to be parting with some of it's atoms.
Teflon pans come with a warning too, that they can causes headaches if heated too hot, I thought that was a funny note to be included with a pan I bought. Methanol jam jars make some formaldehyde. A few campers killed themselves by using dry ice for their ice chest, gased to death while they slept. There are so many stories where people fail to understand chemistry. Look at the astronauts that burned up in a cabin filled with pure oxygen. And that was just good old air. "ha"
Whenever you are working with chemicals that you might not be familiar with, it's always a good idea to ask yourself if there is something that could form that may not be good for you to breathe or get on your hands.
Pulsating combustion is An OUTDOOR Experiment for the most part.
Jutte mentioned grinding, and I remember some very old spark plugs that my Dad had saved that were pink, and my brother said I shouldn't grind them in case they might have beryllium in them, some ceramics were pink in order to indicate beryllium he said. And sad for me, those pink spark plugs were neat looking and would have seemed exotic on a pulsejet ... being the first on my block and all. ha
My brother also had a story of some electronics factory he visited whereupon a later visit several had died from beryllium poisoning.
http://theaviary.com/teflon.shtml
http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/teflon4.htm
http://www.detoxmychild.org/toxic_heavy_metals.htm
http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/advisory/193.pdf
http://www.intox.org/databank/documents ... kpid45.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_oven
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Magnetron2.jpg
"Some magnetrons have ceramic insulators with a piece of beryllium oxide (beryllia) added—these ceramics often appear somewhat pink or purple-colored. The beryllium in such oxides is a serious chemical hazard if crushed and ingested (eg, inhaling dust). In addition, beryllia is listed as a confirmed human carcinogen by the IARC; therefore, broken ceramic insulators or magnetrons should not be handled. This is obviously only a danger if the microwave oven becomes physically damaged (ie, cracked ceramics) or upon opening and handling the magnetron directly, and as such should not occur during normal usage."

I don't even know if this spark plug has a beryllium oxide in it or not, it's just one I found for sale on eBay. I don't want to imply all plugs that are pink are dangerous to grind or overheat, or even if any are, it may be that my brother was just erring on the side of caution for me. I had fiddled with some spark plugs removing the electrodes, thinking about using the ceramic tubing in the making of a tiny spark plug out of a cut piece. But I can tell you, aluminum oxide laughs at hacksaw blades and grinder wheels for the most part.
As an aside, I also thought about using those quartz tube necklaces you see on ebay for a spark plug. It was just a thought for an artistic spark plug. Probably not too practical but it might work for a toy, for a short time.
"25mm Natural Crystal Quartz Faceted Tube Beads 16"
http://cgi.ebay.com/25mm-Natural-Crysta ... .m20.l1116

[PyroJoe]

Zinc is a definite a hazard, but probably not as much over the long haul as the other metals added to the galvanized mix. The heavy metals are really nasty. The body needs small amounts of zinc, just preferably not inhaled. The metal itself is great to machine and work, obtained as easily as a handful of pennys.

Sometimes, if my options in casting a small piece is lead or zinc, I usually go with the zinc. Just an OUTDOOR upwind activity. Would think a smithys bigger threat would be carbon monoxide or pancreatic cancer, both carry the bigger guns, mowing down many souls per year. I guess everythings gunning for us in one way or another. Even certain, all natural, mineral fibers mined directly from mother earth turned out to be something the body couldn't digest and absorb.

Joe

[Ghrey]

You just can not breathe the stuff. If you can not make it safe do not use that material.

Also do not put gatorade or other electrolyte replacement drinks in old-fashioned galvanized water cans. We ( my Wife and I ) did this once, bad case, not fatal, of poisoning from the metal stripped from inside the cooler. It later rusted out in storage, even after having been cleaned and dried, the metal was stripped clean by the gatorade, Iron plus air plus a little humidity equaled total rust out. We drank very little of this witches brew, it tasted bad, fortunately.

I have Used galvanized pipe some for jets and forge parts, either because they were the only option or, the camera I used would take a better picture that way. ( sounds pretty dumb to me... ) Extreme counter measures were used and still I can not call it completely safe that way. Use black pipe. Do not breath the plastic burn off from that either.

Currently I machine off all or allot of the galvanization, especially where parts are to be welded. Eventually I will find a way to use NO galvanized pipe at all.

As to salvaged materials with unknown coatings, If you don't know, don't make it glow.

Just my .0725443 worth.

[Mark]

http://books.google.com/books?id=yDe7kE ... &ct=result
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_fume_fever
http://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/gold/im ... ldhome.gif

[Mark]

"Stainless steel contains nickel and chromium. Nickel can cause asthma. Nickel and chromium can cause cancer. Chromium can cause sinus problems and "holes" between the nostrils.
Mild steel (red iron) and carbon steel contain manganese. Manganese can cause Parkinson's disease, which cripples the nerves and muscles."
"Well folks. This is a hell of a way to do a demo. I did something stupid that I knew better than to do, thinking I was tougher than a little smoke. Well, I miscalculated and now I am dead."
http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tutor/safety3/index.htm
Plant fume fever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNjunlWUJJI
Polymer fume fever and others.
http://www.haz-map.com/inhalati.htm

[Mark]

Water fume fever. ha
"Scientists believe that breathing in small amounts of manganese found in water may harm the central nervous system. Dr John Spangler, of Wake Forest University in New Carolina, said: "If our results are confirmed, they could have profound implications for the world. Inhaling manganese, rather than eating or drinking it, is far more efficient at delivering it to the brain." Manganese is in food and rocks and enters the air, soil and water. It damages the brain leading to learning difficulties, tremors and changes in behaviour. Dr Spangler's team claim that a 10-minute shower a day for 10 years would expose children to three times higher doses than would be needed to damage a rat's brain. Adults with more years in the shower would receive doses 50 per cent higher."
http://rebeccaskloot.blogspot.com/2005/ ... cated.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objecti ... _page.html

How to make water. I recall potassium permanganate is used. It makes a beautiful color when the tiniest crystal is dropped in water. I wonder if that's how the manganese gets into water or if it is naturally occurring or both?
http://blog.mlive.com/watershedwatch/20 ... water.html

Gasoline/manganese fume fever. ha
"People may also be exposed to manganese if they live in high traffic areas where manganese is used as a gasoline additive. Results from a recent study revealed that people who inhaled manganese from automobile emissions, and had high levels of the compound in their blood, showed signs of neurological problems that were similar to those reported in occupationally exposed individuals."
http://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/impacts/manganese.cfm

Manganese tidbits.
"Among a variety of other uses, manganese is a key component of low-cost stainless steel formulations and certain widely used aluminium alloys.[3]"
"Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl is used as an additive in unleaded gasoline to boost octane rating and reduce engine knocking. The manganese in this unusual organometallic compound is in the +1 oxidation state."
"In 2005, a study suggested a possible link between manganese inhalation and central nervous system toxicity in rats.[9] It is hypothesized that long-term exposure to the naturally occurring manganese in shower water puts up to 8.7 million Americans at risk."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese

Welding rod "fume fever."
"A jury recently awarded $1 million to Illinois man who said he developed Parkinson's disease from years of breathing fumes from welding rods."
"Attorneys for welders say workers suffered neurological damage from welding rod fumes that contain manganese, which stabilizes and hardens the weld. In documents, the attorneys said the fumes can lead to brain damage."
http://www.personal-injury.com/practice ... isease.asp

[Mark]

I wonder if aluminum jam jarrers might be interested in this, if it would be of any real concern? Most don't run their jars for very long but still I think combustion is best if done outdoors where you wouldn't be breathing concentrated exhaust fumes regardless of the hazard level. Recall too, you have to factor in the methanol and methanol by-products, how they might form yet other compounds with the alloys.
Aluminum-manganese alloys (3xxx series) are used for manufacturing foil, roof sheets, cooking utensils, rigid containers (binary Al-Mn alloy 3003) and for beverage cans (Al-Mn-Mg alloy 3004).
http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.p ... lloys_3xxx
"The manganese protects the aluminum by combining with impurities that would otherwise corrode aluminum. This is especially important when aluminum is used to hold food and drink in pots and pans. The largest use for manganese-aluminum alloys is for soda and beer cans." "ha"
http://books.google.com/books?id=9eD7R6 ... &ct=result