Lady Anne Boleyn Rev07 Full Size Plan Drawings

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larry cottrill
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Re: Lady Anne

Post by larry cottrill » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:16 pm

Irvine.J wrote:Beautiful work larry. She really is a cracker isn't she?! I'd never seen these stands before, thanks for bringing them to our attention.
Thanks. I spent a lot more time going over the bins at Menards looking for that "just right" part than I did sawing, filing, welding and drilling it! It would be usable on a model plane or boat, too, except that it's awfully high - the hanger would just need to have about an inch cut off before it gets re-bent and the washer gets welded on, and it would be nicely spaced above the mounting plane, even if inverted.
So tell me... did you put a double D in there :D hehehe? I hope so!
See my EDIT above - used a lemniscate spout, which has a similar effect, I think.
Turns out I've had alot of success recently on starting all my engines on a rosco jector , maybe a little easier then trying to play with the fuel and air as it gives you a free hand, get her running then just turn up the fuel :D Anyway, it would be almost criminal to not use that elegant starting system though! Verrrry pretty sir.
But don't you sort of lose your free hand once the engine's running and you have to keep holding the injector at just the right spot? Or do you have something to clip it into once the depth is established and you're running?
I did get your email, but you left out your address.
All right, I'll make sure you get it. Rats!
When you build an engine you do go all out, and she is really pretty indeed, just want to wish you the best of luck with this one, I look forward to it!
Thanks much, mate. Let me tell you, I have a really good feeling about this one, and remember: If it goes, it will be the first Lady Anne I'll see running in real life! My earlier front-loaded model made some nice noise, but only while I kept hitting it with plenty of air. I'm expecting to do a lot better than that this time around, even if the thrust turns out to be less than I want. The important thing is to prove to myself that my SS one (about half the weight of this one) will run well once it's finished up. That one should be absolutely identical internally, except for the slightly larger intake ID (about 22.5 mm).

L Cottrill

Dave_G
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Re: Lady Anne

Post by Dave_G » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:17 pm

larry cottrill wrote:Here's my finished mild steel prototype and a couple closeups of the front engine mount for static running.
Larry,

I just caught your rendition (in metal) of the "Lady Anne" on this thread. Very nice work!

After looking at your photos, one suggestion immediately comes to mind. You can choose to believe me or not on this, but from personal experience I have learned that when you're pushing the envelope of performance with valve-less pulsejet engines, little things like those dual tubes (one for fuel, and a separate one for air) sticking in the inlet can make a big difference in performance.

Something I've been doing for some time now has been to route my starting air right through the fuel tube. The primary reason I do this is because the bulk of my testing is done with liquid fuel, and as I've learned from Ray Lockwood's papers, it's very important to be able to rapidly purge the liquid feed line at engine shutdown.

As an experiment, rather than copy the various Hiller liquid-fueling plumbing schematics in my collection exactly, I decided some time back to try a modification using the purge air for engine starting as well and found that this technique worked well with almost all injector systems. So not only do I have a safety purge when liquid fueling, but this has simplified the starting air arrangement for either liquid or vapor (propane) fueling, by running both fluids through the same feed-line and fuel injector. [And before someone writes a frantic response to this, let me say right now I have no concern of "backpressurizing" my fuel tanks with compressed air / fuel and creating an explosive condition. It doesn't work that way. If someone doesn't believe me on this, I'll leave it to the forum denizens to conduct endless debate amongst themselves regarding pressure drops, actual airflows required for starting, proper use of pressure gages and regulators, etc. - But I will say this: I have no check valves in my system, nor are they required.] In short, plumbing your starting air through your injector will work quite well for the injector type you have, while allowing easy starts for your engine, and most importantly eliminate one of the two obstructions you have in your inlet.

For those experimenters that don't employ a separate hard-mounted air-start line like you have done, this technique (starting air applied directly thru the fuel line) can free up the extra hand that they would normally use to hold an air-gun. This reason alone makes this technique (start air fed concurrently thru the fuel line) a worthwhile expedient.

In operation, my start procedure is as follows: Spark ON, then I crack open the purge-start air valve until my air flowmeter reads the appropriate rate for the particular engine under test. I then open the fuel valve from my pressure-fed fuel system until the engine lights (this happens at a very consistent fuel flow - I know this because of the separate flow meter on my fuel line). Once it's caught, I shut off the purge / start air, and throttle up the motor and start collecting data.

DIY experimenters don't need fancy flowmeters or valves to make this work. A cheap hardware-store ¼" brass ball valve will do the trick. Such a valve only costs about $8 at your local Home Depot / Lowes / whatever store. Simply Tee the air out from the valve into your fuel line, crack the air (most engines don't need more than a whisper of air to start), then open the fuel line slowly until the engine runs in full resonant mode, then shut off the air.

Again, nice work on the Lady Anne, and I hope you can get every ounce of the 4.5 lbs you're seeking out of her!

Good Luck, and Best regards,

Dave

larry cottrill
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Re: Lady Anne

Post by larry cottrill » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:45 pm

Dave_G wrote:Larry,

I just caught your rendition (in metal) of the "Lady Anne" on this thread. Very nice work!
Thanks!
After looking at your photos, one suggestion immediately comes to mind. You can choose to believe me or not on this, but from personal experience I have learned that when you're pushing the envelope of performance with valve-less pulsejet engines, little things like those dual tubes (one for fuel, and a separate one for air) sticking in the inlet can make a big difference in performance.
Yes, I can easily imagine / believe that. I realize that I have a LOT of junk in the way of the intake blast stream. Even those little clamps are not very good - but of course, they are supposedly just there for preliminary testing, in cast the spouting point needs adjustment. Once I know what I'm doing, the clamps can be replaced with tack welds or the fine wire wrap as shown in the drawings. That doesn't eliminate the large footprint of the over-under tube pair arrangement, of course.
Something I've been doing for some time now has been to route my starting air right through the fuel tube. The primary reason I do this is because the bulk of my testing is done with liquid fuel, and as I've learned from Ray Lockwood's papers, it's very important to be able to rapidly purge the liquid feed line at engine shutdown.
This idea and your description are really pretty cool. My original starting tube setup was just the opposite: The air line surrounded the fuel line, but was cut short while the fuel line went on down the throat. I have felt that the air should undergo a slight dispersion, turbulence, etc. on its way in, to aid in mixing. This seems not to be the case, if I'm understanding the layout from your description. Do you hold the air spout back a little from the "plane" of the fuel spout - a kind of ejector effect?

Of course, I should mention that my real interest is in achieving liquid fuel carburetion - a "pressureless" fuel draw. This is especially interesting for the smallest engines, of course, where you want to keep fuel system weight absolutely minimal. The simplest scheme I can think of would be to bring the fuel in from the side at the appropriate station, with the nozzled air spout just a little way aft so it will blow right across the fuel port (centered in the duct cross-section).
Again, nice work on the Lady Anne, and I hope you can get every ounce of the 4.5 lbs you're seeking out of her!
Thanks very much, sir!

L Cottrill

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Re: Lady Anne

Post by Dave_G » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:39 pm

larry cottrill wrote:My original starting tube setup was just the opposite: The air line surrounded the fuel line, but was cut short while the fuel line went on down the throat. I have felt that the air should undergo a slight dispersion, turbulence, etc. on its way in, to aid in mixing. This seems not to be the case, if I'm understanding the layout from your description. Do you hold the air spout back a little from the "plane" of the fuel spout - a kind of ejector effect?
Yes, you do understand my description correctly, and no, there is no air spout, no separate plane from the fuel spout, and no entrainment effect. It's very simple: I have found that rather than employ a separate starting air jet, I can simply inject starting air directly into the fuel feedline upstream of the thermal barrier from the engine (several feet away from the engine, in fact), open the fuel valve to add fuel to the already flowing airstream, and start the engine pretty much regardless of injector type. For example, your injector adds momentum to the intake influx into the engine, and insures that fuel and air co-supplied from a single injection point will be well-mixed before reaching the spark plug. Most of the injectors I use do not add momentum in this fashion, and air spills perhaps much more readily out of the inlet than it does the exhaust, and yet this technique still works. That, for me, was the surprising part. It works because a combustible mixture is still able to reach the spark plug. Consider a radial spray injector; it does not add momentum in an axial direction to the intake influx. Yet, you can plumb an airline into the fuel line, far away and upstream from the motor, add fuel to this flowing stream of air and start your engine. For people using propane vapor and a handheld shop air-gun, this presents a hands-free approach to starting, as I described previously. For someone running liquid fuels, this air purge is a virtual necessity at shutdown for safety reasons.

So no, there is no separate air line going to the motor. You are simply feeding air into your fuel line well before it enters the motor / fuel injector and prior to turning on the fuel, then adding some fuel to this already flowing airstream until the engine lights.

Regarding carburetion, Kentfield and his associates built and tested a number of valveless pulsejets using carburetors. I have the blueprints, shop drawings and research data (which I am not permitted to disseminate) from several of them. They DO work, and at one time Professor Kentfield even produced a cold-climate equipment defroster (presumably for commercial resale) using a carbureted valveless pulse combustor. However, in terms of producing a highly-loaded, high performance pulse combustor, carbureted engines left some things to be desired over conventional valveless pulse combustors. For one thing, the carburetors required their own special low-inertia check valve upstream of the venturi to prevent engine pressure pulses from interfering with the carburetor, they also found that multiple float chambers were required, and most importantly, pressure loss due to the obstruction that the venturi presented to the engine inlet resulted in a considerable performance loss compared to a more "conventional" valveless pulsejet. I also have a detailed and dimensioned drawing for the 'fluidic rectifier' carburetor that Professor Kentfield tested that was designed to eliminate the need for the check valve, but as he stated "When the fluidic carburetor was tried a severe gasoline blowback was observed...Furthermore, the starting air could not be turned off as the combustor ceased resonance". A number of attempts were made to remedy these problems, and all were unsuccessful with results similar to the earlier tests.

If you do experiment with carburetors (and you should! - I am an avid believer in experimentation), your challenges will be to address droplet size, ignition delay, and blowback (by which I mean pressure disturbances propagated into, and tending to disrupt, the liquid feed).

Best regards to you, Sir!

Dave

larry cottrill
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Stressful Stainless Studies

Post by larry cottrill » Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:51 pm

Well, our inexperience in working with thin stainless finally caught up with us in getting the stainless Lady's intake fairing welded onto the chamber. Part of it was Jason's limited experience, but largely it was my own fault in providing a really poor design detail at that location - fillet welding between two lightly touching edges like that is just NOT a good detail for stainless. What happened is that the sheet warped DOWN toward the chamber centerline as welding progressed, leaving a wavy "caved in" zone of chamber shell along the weld. It's a pretty obnoxious setback, mostly because we made the mistake of already having the front dome fully welded in. I think we can get it back, though, with some effort and patience.

Here's where I should have paid attention to the admonition to use a backing plate, and that's what we'll do to fix it: First, we'll grind all around the edge of the dome so it can be popped off there, leaving the front end free. Then, we'll use a thin grinding wheel or some such to cut through the lower edge fairing welds all around the sides and front. This is important to the repair, because right now the fairing and chamber wall are supporting each other in the distorted final geometry. Once the fillet weld is cut through (and largely gone), the lower edges of the fairing can temporarily be pulled outward a little. Then, we'll use the second chamber cone Steve Bukowsky rolled for me (and I welded up) away back in 2004 as a "dolly" inside the stainless cone to help with heating and shrinking the stainless port edge back into line with the desired cone contour. The original Short Lady chamber cone is a little longer and a little bigger at the narrow end, so it will "bottom out" in the stainless cone somewhere behind the port with some side-to-side "slop" at the front end. Still it will be close enough to the right conical shape for our purposes.

Eventually, when it comes to re-welding the fairing down, this same steel chamber cone will be used to back up the stainless cone for welding all around. The dome will be re-welded as the final step in fabrication. There will certainly be some unintended roughness inside around the port edge where the fairing meets the chamber, but this is right where we want to start getting some turbulence in the incoming stream anyway, so I really don't think it's an issue.

For production, a steel backing cone could be made that would have a couple of small ridges that reach up through the port slightly to back up the side edges of the fairing. It would probably also be good to re-design the fairing so those edges would terminate in a rather thin flange bent outward from the side planes. All of that should make the delicate welding in these zones MUCH easier to manage. Yes, sometimes we only learn really well from experience. I'm still confident that it will be a beautiful piece in the end, though.

L Cottrill
Last edited by larry cottrill on Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

larry cottrill
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Fix Almost Complete

Post by larry cottrill » Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:34 pm

Well, Jim and Jason did a beautiful job of straightening out the chamber cone area around the fairing, working more or less as I described above (though I wasn't there to see it done). Apparently there was quite a bit of roughness on the inside of those welds, too, and that's been entirely cleaned up. The new welding, with the backing cone I provided and a somewhat smaller one Jim had lying around, went really well. There are only a couple of minor flaws left - there's a little roughness at the seam between the intake tube and the fairing (a few TINY globs projecting slightly into the air path, probably of no consequence at all) and a tiny gap at one rear corner of the fairing big enough to slide an average size sewing needle through. The latter will require grinding out some weld and re-building it, but only for a few mm of weld length, so I don't think this amounts to much. Once that's dealt with, the front dome goes back on and we're done.

The exterior of the weld up over the back edge of the fairing was a little high and nubbly; Jim planed off most of it in a couple of minutes with a small rotary hand sander, and I finished smoothing it up at the jewelry bench with a nice carbide bit and small files he provided. So, this detail area ended up looking pretty smooth, and the long weld all around the fairing sides and front are MUCH nicer than before, with the cone surface in good shape all around.

She should be ready tomorrow, unless something prevents them from getting back to it. They have lots of other work going on, of course.

Stay tuned ...

L Cottrill

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Post by hagent » Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:23 pm

Real nice work Larry,

I really like this design.

You always go the extra mile on all your projects. I hope she runs strong and can't wait to hear the good news!
Hagen Tannberg

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Lady anne

Post by Irvine.J » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:31 am

Larry was just going to say I found I got far less of that dip when tig welding the intake if I was tacking it in place with the mig, all the way around then welding vertically down the seam. If you keep the engine vertical whilst welding the intake, the weld pool will run down along the intake with gravity instead of bulging down into your CC. Works pretty well, perhaps give it a try?
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Lady Anne + Larry's Injector.

Post by Irvine.J » Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:00 am

Heya guys, here is a 3/16th Vectorjet for Larry's new engine.
They are much thinner then the 1/4 inch ones, hopefully they do the trick nicely, especially in small intakes.

Larry if you can't get your hands on a sig gasser pump or some RC gear, simply use a voltage controller of some description and throw an automotive fuel pump into a bucket of fuel. Get her running on propane then simply turn it up to about 1/2 throttle, drop off the propane and away it goes.
Enjoy! I'd suggest testing the flow rate with the fuel your going to use into a bucket, aiming for about 125ml per minute, mark it on the 12 light dimmer, then experiment from there up n down. These are quite hard to make in 3/16, for now they are $25, but the price might go up a tad shortly if anyones interested. 1/4 Inch $20.

Sure they look ugly, but its just the flux residue.
Attachments
laz3.JPG
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laz4.JPG
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laz2.JPG
laz2.JPG (108.49 KiB) Viewed 5288 times
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Stainless Lady Anne Ready To Test

Post by larry cottrill » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:59 pm

OK, here's what she looks like right now. The chamber is a little ugly, because I didn't want to pay the guys to polish it up for me when I want to mess it up again right away getting her running. I decided to mount the engine with the intake underneath, per my original design idea.

Note the crossed tail-end braces - just pieces of 1/16-inch SS welding rod. On a model vehicle, I'd use bicycle spoke ends with adjustable clevises - more substantial, but still flexible enough to allow for thermal expansion. All that's needed to completely brace the tail end is two struts like this at right angles to one another. The wire shown should be more than adequate for static testing. Jason the weldor decided that simply clamping the lugs onto the tail cone and lightly fillet welding would be very easy, so they aren't folded through slots as the plans show. Simplicity itself.

Fuel pipe for propane is 3/16-inch brake line with lemniscate spout, exactly as described earlier. I'll open up a new thread for test runs, which I MIGHT get to do this afternoon. Maybe ... Once I get to the place where I think I've done enough static testing, THEN I'll polish her up myself for some promotional photos and such.

L Cottrill
Attachments
Lady_Anne_stainless_prototype_right_front_small.jpg
Lady Anne stainless prototype, as seen from low right front quarter. Photo Copyright 2007 Larry Cottrill
Lady_Anne_stainless_prototype_right_front_small.jpg (31.12 KiB) Viewed 5252 times
Lady_Anne_stainless_prototype_front_end_small.jpg
Lady Anne Boleyn Rev07 stainless prototype front end side view. Photo Copyright 2007 Larry Cottrill
Lady_Anne_stainless_prototype_front_end_small.jpg (43.98 KiB) Viewed 5252 times
Lady_Anne_stainless_prototype_tail_end_small.jpg
Lady Anne Boleyn Rev07 stainless prototype - tail end view showing the crossed SS wire struts and thrash mount lugs. Photo Copyright 2007 Larry Cottrill
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Lady_Anne_stainless_prototype_top_rear_small.jpg
Lady Anne Boleyn Rev07 stainless prototype, top rear view. Photo Copyright 2007 Larry Cottrill
Lady_Anne_stainless_prototype_top_rear_small.jpg (64.76 KiB) Viewed 5253 times
Lady_Anne_stainless_prototype_top_front_small.jpg
Lady Anne Boleyn Rev07 stainless prototype, top front view. Photo Copyright 2007 Larry Cottrill
Lady_Anne_stainless_prototype_top_front_small.jpg (34.75 KiB) Viewed 5252 times

ed knesl
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Lady Ann

Post by ed knesl » Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:19 am

Gentlemen, I was gone for a month, so I missed the ongoing conversation. Of course I will run it on propane first, than when I get bored, liquid fueling in the next - already working on such system.

How many specimen we have so far ? Just Larry's and mine ?
We can set up some contest.

Ed
...Nobody is right, nobody is wrong...

ed knesl
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To Mike Everman

Post by ed knesl » Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:29 am

Mike !
Sorry for late response. I was in Idaho, resting.
I would love to host you on my - I call it Monastery !
Right now we have the monsoon season and it rains like crazy every
day. Late September, early October would be ideal.
Seriously, we should do that, maybe somebody else could be interested
in joining us.
Mike, I am very glad to hear from you, let's stay in touch.
I am going to fire this latest engine before the weekend is over and
I let you all know.

Ed
...Nobody is right, nobody is wrong...

Irvine.J
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Welcome back

Post by Irvine.J » Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:47 am

Welcome back Mr knesl,
I wondered where you'd disappeared to. It seems that Larry got his working so if you propose a contest you'd have to catch up! :-)
There is another thread that larry posted some video on too, make sure you check that out.
http://www.pulse-jets.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=4410
Mike is apparently on holiday atm catching me a big fat trout, so he may not reply for 2 weeks I think,
Welcome back, and good luck with the lady anne!
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Lady Anne 07

Post by hagent » Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:21 am

Hi Larry,

I was wondering if you still draw your Lady Anne in Nudis by having the intake infront of the CC, or have you found a better method?

Of course I always have a concentric intake on my mind, so at some pointe could I have your permisson to try and build the lady Anne with a concentric intake?

I think it would be very interesting. I wouldn't be able to start building it for a month or two.

I'm off to Japan this Sunday for a few weeks!

Take care Larry. You're always an insperation to us all.
Hagen Tannberg

larry cottrill
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Hi, Ed!

Post by larry cottrill » Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:52 pm

Yes, Ed, welcome back!

One thing that I forgot to mention (and that I don't have a photo of, naturally) is that I had Jim Russell build me a little "intake suction testing wand", i.e. I cut the tubing and had him silver solder it together. Imagine a straight 3/16-inch OD brakeline with a 1/16-inch tube projecting upward out of the very end of it, forming an L shape. The idea is to slide the tube back and forth along the bottom of the intake duct with the open end of the small tube at the approximate centreline, while you view the suction in terms of how far it will lift colored water up a clear vinyl tube (or just use the standard engine suction gauge, but the accuracy would be lower). The open end face of the little tube always lies in a plane parallel to the intake centreline, i.e. this is basically a "carburetor suction" test. Haven't tried it out yet, but at least I now have a workable tool for measurement.

Get with it, man, fire that Lady up and see what she'll do!

L Cottrill

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