New engine -- SP 14

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Bruno Ogorelec
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Re: Combustion flow

Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:11 pm

Graham C. Williams wrote:Dear Bruno.
I cannot see too much of a problem with this type of flow. You may get very good mixing. I've seen this type of flow in smoke tests.
Graham.
Oh, I don't doubt it. But, I am not after good mixing turbulence this time around (a good thing though it may be). I am trying to explore the toroidal vortex as an aid to combustion in the way Reynst tried to do.

He actually came rather far, but not far enough, at least not in the direction useful for jet propulsion.

I think the new guest in the forum -- Vhautaka (?) -- has some sound ideas -- I must think about his long posting a bit more -- he deserves a considered response.

I have also received some highly interesting input by e-mail.

I haven't had this much fun for ages. I wish I could devote more time to this...

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Re: Just a minute!

Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:19 pm

vhautaka wrote:Bruno, did you read what I just said up there? I can't blame you... perhaps I had too much to say to express it in readable English. :) But, about enhancing the donut vortex with the returning hot gas?
Vhautaka, a very nice try! That's almost exactly what Mike Everman, Chris Brick and I came up with -- each in his own way, with slight variations among the ideas. Seems like this debate is generating a lot of thought in the same direction.

I like this configuration and expect it to generate very strong bangs. However, it will also waste a lot of energy on trying to expel hot gas through the badly positioned exhaust. There will be a lot of turbulence.

I think I have devised a nice configuration of intake and exhaust that generates a very strong vortex but does not force the exhaust gas through contortions. But, my wife is already giving me dirty looks for spending so much time at the computer. Guess I should rejoin the rest of the family for a while. Maybe I'll have a drawing tomorrow.

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2nd Argos Test Motor

Post by Graham C. Williams » Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:53 am

Dear all.
Have another look at the 2nd Argos test motor. It does just this in the same way. I don't know why they didn't follow this idea but I would not be surprised if it had a lot to do with (As Bruno stated) waiting energy. It's interesting to see that some modern (steady flow) burners use this principle to achieve efficient combustion, but here thrust is not the required outcome. In the design of a jet all things must ultimately point to this end. The Rhynst combustor is very, very good at transferring heat to the walls. I think that was his point.
Have a look at some of the work of Prof. Ann R. Karagozian for a more modern approach to the problems of efficient combustion.

Graham.

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Post by Mark » Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:45 am

Mike Everman wrote:I like it Graham, large frontal area, though. Is this to scale? Bruno's comments about vortices and flow brought the attached from the hind-brain (not to scale).
Here's a "similar" shape I thought about trying. Any quick, witty, retort or comments welcome. Seems it would produce swirls like a jam jar if slightly modified.

http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl ... gory=26406
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Post by Mike Everman » Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:32 am

Bruno, I fear all of this toroidal work will make a great burner and little thrust, but I can't stop thinking about it too.
Mike Often wrong, never unsure.
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Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Sun Jan 11, 2004 10:24 am

Mike Everman wrote:Bruno, I fear all of this toroidal work will make a great burner and little thrust, but I can't stop thinking about it too.
Why do you think so? The swirl produces a pumping effect (additional suction) so that more charge is taken in than in other pulsating combustors. I addition, the charge combusts while traveling fast, unlike the other pulsating combustors, which have to stop the charge before igniting it.

My hope is that by avoiding the conversion of speed into pressure and back to speed, I may gain something. Conversions are usually wasteful.

Now, the trick is not to lose that speed (he said, after long barking up a completely different tree). I'm looking for a configuration that will swirl the gas powerfully away from the intake and towards the exhaust, but without the exhaust backflow fighting the swirl.

It will take some doing. However, Graham is right in pointing out that the Argus design is a move in that direction. Here's a picture of the flows. The Reynst pot also goes some way in that direction.

As for transfering heat to the walls, there's always thermal isolation.
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Post by Mike Everman » Sun Jan 11, 2004 4:22 pm

Yeah, that Argos is schematically almost identical to the Reynst. I think our toroidal approach needs some fluidic logic, some gating to keep the velocity up in the vortex, and as you say exits non-contrary to the rotation. Thinking of four openings on the CC, two in, two out... Thinking out loud, ignore by blatherings while I sketch something up!
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Old Singing Pigs

Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Sun Jan 11, 2004 4:59 pm

Here's an old drawing of a concept of mine that tried to unite the Reynst chamber with my feebly successful Unicone idea. I think only Bill Hinote has seen it before. This looks like something that has a fluidic diode built in. Besides, the intake and exhaust do not clash -- they are one and the same thing. I'll have to give it a retroactive SP number.

Anyone care to comment on its flow patterns?
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Post by vhautaka » Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:31 pm

Oh my, it's time I introduce myself shortly. I didn't realize that even my real name wasn't visible anywhere.

Ville Hautakangas, 26 years, Helsinki, Finland. Have a history of mental illness concerning rockets and all sorts of flame & noise, and never hurt anything but my ears (probably that heavy metal music back then...) and only burned hair on my hands.

Currently I live in a flat and all the tools and materials I could use for this project are a couple of hundred km away, but accessible. A little machine shop located in a rural sandpit, and the neighbors are used to many kinds of terrible noise from rock drilling equipment. Nice, huh? :)

Anyway...

I thought of trying out something like this. The drawing is the simplest configuration, the tubes will likely need some forming before it does anything but bangs.

This is no SP-14, this is just a very simple pulsejet to check for usable opening sizes, the lengths of the different parts and possible tube shapes for an annular configuration. Just to get something like this running. :)

In the drawing there's a huge area combustion chamber in the front. However, moving the inner tubes enough to the left, there'll be just intake and a straight pipe. I'd think that's the easiest starting point, as there would be no Reynst behaviour to think and calculate about.

The pipe diameters will be chosen so that initially the intake area will be some 30% of the tailpipe area, and the tailpipe will be somewhat longer
than recommended for a similar-area pulsejet.

Comments?
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Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:03 pm

vhautaka wrote:Oh my, it's time I introduce myself shortly.
Welcome, Ville.
vhautaka wrote:Have a history of mental illness concerning rockets and all sorts of flame & noise, and never hurt anything but my ears (probably that heavy metal music back then...) and only burned hair on my hands.
Welcome to the mental asylum. All of us here are crazy in the similar way to you. And, if the hair was on the palms, it should not have grown there in the first place!
vhautaka wrote:The drawing is the simplest configuration, the tubes will likely need some forming before it does anything but bangs.
Can’t say I understand anything.
vhautaka wrote:This is no SP-14, this is just a very simple pulsejet
The way you put it, you make SP-14 sound like a serious engine. It is just a concept. God knows what kind of problems it would generate in real life, if someone tried to build it.

Bruno

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Post by vhautaka » Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:12 pm

brunoogorelec wrote:And, if the hair was on the palms, it should not have grown there in the first place!
Nah, it grows back soon enough :)
brunoogorelec wrote: Can’t say I understand anything.
Can't blame you. What I tried to explain was, I'll just start with the simplest possible annular configuration with the simplest rules (ie. straight long CC/tailpipe, reasonably-sized valveless intake) and work my way up to more complicated designs.

I just think aloud as I write, and it tends to make no sense in the end.
brunoogorelec wrote: The way you put it, you make SP-14 sound like a serious engine. It is just a concept. God knows what kind of problems it would generate in real life, if someone tried to build it.
There seems to be quite a lot of these ideas that seem perfectly realizable, and so few people that are actually capable of building and testing things... and they, I think, mostly prefer tried and true designs.

Well, my next visit to my folks will hopefully bring this piece of open source science one step closer to reality. If I can't get it anywhere, I'll just build a Lockwood. Now that's tried and true :)

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Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Sun Jan 11, 2004 10:26 pm

vhautaka wrote:There seems to be quite a lot of these ideas that seem perfectly realizable, and so few people that are actually capable of building and testing things... and they, I think, mostly prefer tried and true designs.
Well, I don't blame them. I was closely involved in the process of building and testing of six or seven different pulsejets of relatively novel layout. Each and every one was incredibly frustrating. Only two resulted in a tolerably well running engine.

Pulsejets are that way. Sometimes they depend on tiny little details being right. At other times, a tube splits into two in the middle, yet the engine continues merrily to work well (or worse, better than before). Awful. Often you want to blast away at it with a shotgun.

Sticking to tried and true designs may perhaps rob you of the excitement of breaking new ground, but at least it leads to working engines far more often. Believe me, breaking new ground fruitlessly for moths on end is not very attractive.

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Post by vhautaka » Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:35 pm

brunoogorelec wrote: Well, I don't blame them. I was closely involved in the process of building and testing of six or seven different pulsejets of relatively novel layout. Each and every one was incredibly frustrating. Only two resulted in a tolerably well running engine.
Are these results on a webpage somewhere?
brunoogorelec wrote: Pulsejets are that way. Sometimes they depend on tiny little details being right. At other times, a tube splits into two in the middle, yet the engine continues merrily to work well (or worse, better than before). Awful. Often you want to blast away at it with a shotgun.
Hey, a shotgun will absolutely have to be tried on a disposable prototype while it's running. In different places. And if it continues running, the thrust must be measured and pictures taken after each shot. :)


Now, here's a crappy but understandable drawing of some different annular shapes. Different _easily_ constructable shapes, that is. The opening sizes will be roughly equal to some or other known-working design. Efficient or not :)

The prototypes will be constructed of steel pipe, as that's abundant. Usable sheet metal may be scarce, so cones will be formed from scratch only when necessary.

I think I'll put some money into good, light stainless steel sheet only when I have practised my rusty skills on some rusty pipes...
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Post by tufty » Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:50 am

vhautaka wrote: Hey, a shotgun will absolutely have to be tried on a disposable prototype while it's running. In different places. And if it continues running, the thrust must be measured and pictures taken after each shot. :)
Aw, heck. Now I need to buy a shotgun ;-)
vhautaka wrote: Now, here's a crappy but understandable drawing of some different annular shapes. Different _easily_ constructable shapes, that is. The opening sizes will be roughly equal to some or other known-working design. Efficient or not :)
I like this way of thinking. It's helped me crystallise some thoughts I was already having wrt what, exactly, happens in a Reynst pot. Which is marginally off-topic here, but here goes anyway...

What, exactly, is the difference between a Reynst pot and, for example, a Lockwood? If we take a Reynst pot (with or without internal diffuser, but with is easier to picture mentally) and add tuned exhaust and inlet as per patent no FR949103, page 7, Fig 5, I think we actually have a valveless pulsejet with two openings, very similar to a lockwood. The inlet is wrapped around the exhaust in an annular fashion, but the principle seems to be roughly equivalent, and the only difference is how the burn happens (toroidal in a Reynst versus .... well, however it occurs in a Lockwood. Anyone thought of blowing a pyrex lockwood to see exactly what goes on inside?).

Another thought that occurs to me is that the start of the 'exhaust' of a Reynst might well be considered to be where the flow reverses in the CC - i.e. from the bottom of the 'pot', hence the behaviour of a reynst pot with tuned exhaust as a quarter-wave resonator (more or less).

I don't know if this is helpful, wrong, or just plain obvious, but there you have it. A thought or two.

Now back to Java pain.

Simon

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Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:02 am

tufty wrote: What, exactly, is the difference between a Reynst pot and, for example, a Lockwood? If we take a Reynst pot (with or without internal diffuser, but with is easier to picture mentally) and add tuned exhaust and inlet as per patent no FR949103, page 7, Fig 5, I think we actually have a valveless pulsejet with two openings, very similar to a lockwood.
Simon,

Speaking very broadly, all valveless pulsejets are the same. Mark 'Thixis' has long preached that approach. We are only looking at different ways to arrange the parts. However, this approach is helpful only to a fresh student of pulsejet design and as a philosophical reminder. In practice, the various arrangements of chambers, pipes and openings operate in a great variety of modes.

In real pulsejets, it is sometimes a tiny detail that decides. In some of its iterations, the Reynst may resemble Lockwood or Ecrevisse, but one detail remains – exhaust is always located at least a tiny bit more downstream from the intake. If it isn't, it is not a Reynst. The order of parts is always chamber-intake-exhaust, rather than the more common intake-chamber-exhaust. A true Reynst combustor has a single opening on the chamber. If there is more than one, they have to be absolutely identical. Otherwise, it starts working like an ordinary pulsejet, or does not work at all.

The crucial difference between the Reynst and the others is truly fundamental, and it depends on having a single opening or, multiple identical openings.

Namely, ignition in a Reynst pot is different. It is not triggered by the wave reflected off the exhaust end, which – in the 'ordinary' pulsejets -- slows the propagation of fresh charge and enables combustion to spread from its initial kernels and pockets to the entire mixture. The Reynst combustor ignites its mixture at speed. It does not stop its incoming mixture, but simply changes its direction. Instead of the mixture progressing in a more or less straight line, it starts swirling in an orderly vortex (or a train of orderly vortices). In other pulsejets, it turns into chaotic turbulence.

For this reason, a Reynst combustor does not even need the exhaust pipe to work. Now, try making a Lockwood or an Ecrevisse, or any other pulsejet, work without the exhaust pipe! Unlike any other pulsejet that I know, the Reynst is not an acoustic resonator. It is not a pure Kadenacy breather, either. It is a beast completely unto its own. It can use an acoustic tailpipe, true, but it is an accessory that enhances its performance, rather than an essential part. It can be likened to the augmenter on an ordinary pulsejet – it can transform performance, but the basic combustor will work without it.

But, you are right in one detail. If equipped with a resonant exhaust, the acoustic length is effectively the distance between the bottom of the ‘pot’ and the end of the exhaust pipe. The bottom is the pressure node and the end is the speed node. The problem is that in the intake part of the cycle, the situation changes and a new speed node (pressure antinode) appears at the intake slit. The exhaust tube becomes an open-ended resonator, with a pressure node in the middle and antinodes at the ends. In practice it means that the thing simultaneously resonates in a basic frequency and its first odd harmonic. Those two must be dominant over everything else for the machine to function properly.

Without the exhaust resonator, acoustic behavior disappears and the pot works to its own specific frequency that has nothing to do with its acoustic properties. It is an order of magnitude lower than its acoustic frequency.

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