EDK Concept 4X

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mk
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re: EDK Concept 4X

Post by mk » Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:30 pm

Maybe I know what was Ed's former hobby: Building hidden, shrouded tuned pipes for two-stroke motorcycles! Especially for older ones, where you just have the diffuser running in a larger straight pipe section.
No fancy looks as today featuring some back cone, a piece of pipe here and a smaller one there, some extraordinary looking silencer, probably made out of carbon etc. Manly in order to avoid some nasty stuff when a cop would stop him and for keeping the cool old-style look, of course, while increasing the power output by factor 1.2 or so.

BTW There must be something inside, IMHO! Just as the stuff that was placed in exhausts of old two-stroke motorcycles. You just don't want the pipes without their interior parts.
mk

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re: EDK Concept 4X

Post by pezman » Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:36 pm

Hey, I had the same suspicion about an internal body.

I was looking at the chinese and thinking about making the intake as an internal body, with 4 1/2" ports carrying air from the exterior to the interior body, leading to a venturi where the propane induces air-flow (kind of like a giant bernz-o-matic torch).

Here's a link to the Mongo-burner series, in case anyone want's to take a shot at this ...
http://www.reil1.net/Minimongo.jpg

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re: EDK Concept 4X

Post by Mark » Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:59 pm

Tidbit on "straight pipe".
Mark
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Re: re: EDK Concept 4X

Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:08 am

pezman wrote:Here's a link to the Mongo-burner series, in case anyone want's to take a shot at this ...
http://www.reil1.net/Minimongo.jpg
Thanks! This is what I always wanted to do.

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re: EDK Concept 4X

Post by Mike Everman » Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:52 pm

OK, I'll bite, what's a Mongo Burner for?
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re: EDK Concept 4X

Post by pezman » Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:22 pm

The mongo burner is originally for a forge.

The beauty of the design is that it give parameters for a venturi that makes an approximately stoichiometric mix of propane-air, so it can be applied as a front-end for a pj.

I think that a centerbody design simplifies fabrication, since the exhaust tube can be a straiggt pipe. Concidentally, the centerbody is about the right diameter for the intake tube, so replace the intake with the mongo-burner, ported to the outside of the main tube. It might be necessary to fatten the centerbody a little, maybe with an alumina sleeve or something like that to insulate it a bit.

I think that the "burner" will need a "caboose" of sorts that extends it farther down the tube (i.e. the centerbody is kind of like an aero-spike).

If you are brave, you could fill the "caboose" with fuel and you get a pressurized tank as the fuel heats up. On the other hand, the vapor pressure of fuels like propane and methanol seems to go up exponentially with temperature, so using the caboose as a tank may not be such a good idea. A saner alternative might be to embed vaporizer coils in the caboose.

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Re: re: EDK Concept 4X

Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:32 pm

Pezman, please make an additional effort for the people who are not at home with your language.
pezman wrote:I think that a centerbody design simplifies fabrication, since the exhaust tube can be a straight pipe.
What do you mean by that? I don’t see how one follows from the other.
pezman wrote:Concidentally, the centerbody is about the right diameter for the intake tube, so replace the intake with the mongo-burner, ported to the outside of the main tube.
What does ‘ported to the outside of the main tube’ mean? What main tube?
pezman wrote:It might be necessary to fatten the centerbody a little, maybe with an alumina sleeve or something like that to insulate it a bit.
Insulate it from what?
pezman wrote:I think that the "burner" will need a "caboose" of sorts that extends it farther down the tube (i.e. the centerbody is kind of like an aero-spike).
I know four different meanings of the word ‘caboose’ but none fit the picture in any meaningful way. What did you mean by ‘caboose’?

Also, I know what the aerospike is, but fail to see it anywhere in connection with this burner.

I’d really like to know, because I have been proposing the use of the Bunsen burner (which is about a century and a half older than the Mongo and of almost exactly the same construction) for ages. I have one in the garage that is almost a century old.

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re: EDK Concept 4X

Post by pezman » Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:33 pm

Here's a sketch of the idea. I apologize for the frustrating nature of the original post -- I agree that it was unclear.

I built a small burner using 1/2" copper tubing and a 0.6mm MIG tip and it worked remarkably well. I made a flame-holder using a female thread adapter on the end of the burner tube (the thread adapter widens the tube a bit and drops the fluid speed below the flame speed). With the flame-holder. I could get stable flames with the "throttle" wide open -- probably 60+ psi behind the nozzle before the propane got cold. It was hard to believe that such a small burner could make such an intense flame.

The design is clearly derived from the Bunsen burner (so are Bernz-o-matic torches). The significance of the design is that someone has worked out the right dimensions for performance under a wide range of supply pressures.

I guess that the reference to an aero-spike is a somewhat imprecise usage of the term. What I meant is that the center-body is areo-spikish just as the frustra in PJs are nozzle-ish (in both shape and purpose).
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re: EDK Concept 4X

Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:40 pm

Thank you. I think I understand what you meant now.

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re: EDK Concept 4X

Post by Dave » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:38 am

Ed
Any more information on your 4X?
Dave

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Re: re: EDK Concept 4X

Post by ed knesl » Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:06 pm

Dave wrote:Ed
Any more information on your 4X?
Dave
This project has been a total success !

1. Considerable radiant heat reduction - 75%
2. Noise level reduced significantly - not measured
3. Vibration limitation
4. Absolutely no heat distortion
5. Very qiuck starting - 5-6 sec cold, 3 sec warmed
6. Thrust 5.3 lbs - measured with Ametek digital force gage

The fast start is possible with Steve Tee's "Spak-o-tron" continuous
spark. Once fuel valve gets open, the engine starts, than mild quick
blast of air and resonance comes within couple of seconds.

Fuel jet is 1/4 in "Rosscojector".
Engine diameter is 62 mm I.D.

I will post running engine pictures in couple of hours.
( Was not able to attach anything - dissapeared from the post )

Ed
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re: EDK Concept 4X

Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:10 pm

Good news, Ed! We are all looking forward to hearing 8and seeing) more. It's a very, very interesting engine.

Unconnected with this -- Ed, I'm going to Prague at the beginning of August for about a week. Any chance of you going there? Do you ever visit the old country?

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re: EDK Concept 4X

Post by ed knesl » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:22 am

Two images of running engine.
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re: EDK Concept 4X

Post by ed knesl » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:26 am

Ok, only one got through, here is the other one.

Ed
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re: EDK Concept 4X

Post by Mike Everman » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:47 am

Ed, that is amazingly, stupendously, fantastically phenominal! You must know that this opens up some questions and puts the hurt on some rules of thumb!
Sofa King cool.
I have all the parts, and mine is only maybe an hour of building away. OOoh, no time to play, damn it! I plan to make my chinese like THAT, then pinch it in two places while running with bottle jacks.

This is very inspiring, Ed! Thanks for that.
Mike
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