r.b pelteire.question

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Bruno Ogorelec
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Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Sun Nov 23, 2003 9:29 pm

Viv wrote:I will not slavishly accept it as working just becouse "the proven authorities and conventional theory" say it works
Viv, don't make me look as if I am accepting anything "slavishly". I have said it is your word against theirs. If forced to choose between the two, I choose them. Forgive me Viv, but at the moment, their word has far greater weight worth me than yours. They know vastly more than you and (especially) I.

They do not know everything and I will happily accept proof that they are wrong. However, I have not seen it so far. I have only seen your and Graham's claims, which sound wrong to me.

Bruno

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Post by LMGM » Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:14 am

sorry to bring this question.but i was interested in a riable gas generator to a turbine that im developing.i have workig pulse detonation chambers.and all of them work fine,but have to have, a blowing pressure, a compressor, in the case of r.b.pelteire, its not need. so my interest.if any one have some specific drawins ill be most thankful

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Post by Bruce » Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:01 am

If you're planning to use a pulsejet(s) to generate gas-pressure to drive a PDE then I think you've overlooked a very important point:

the gases coming out of a pulsejet (especially an EP which, *if* it worked would not draw cold air into the tailpipe) will contain no oxygen so they won't support combustion or detonation.

Your PDE won't even create a lazy burn if you're trying to stoke it up with the exhaust of a pulsejet :-)

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Post by Mike Everman » Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:05 am

LMGM wrote:...have workig pulse detonation chambers.and all of them work fine...
I for one would like to hear about your PDE chambers, fuel type, ignition, configuration; anything you feel like sharing...
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Post by Viv » Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:59 am

brunoogorelec wrote:
Viv wrote:I will not slavishly accept it as working just becouse "the proven authorities and conventional theory" say it works
Viv, don't make me look as if I am accepting anything "slavishly". I have said it is your word against theirs. If forced to choose between the two, I choose them. Forgive me Viv, but at the moment, their word has far greater weight worth me than yours. They know vastly more than you and (especially) I.

They do not know everything and I will happily accept proof that they are wrong. However, I have not seen it so far. I have only seen your and Graham's claims, which sound wrong to me.

Bruno
Well i am finding it hard to accept thats all Bruno, I just need to verify that some of the stuff we are taking as fact is in fact a fact and not some ones supposition.

Hell I would be dead upset if people took my rantings and such as fact with out checking, if their is a hole in my thinking I am the first to want to know were it is.

So all I want is a bit more proof on the EP, but as you say you havant seen it in your research and you have one of the best archives so it looks like we will have to build one to test it:-)

Were I will get the time to do all this I don't know:-)

Do you have a scan of the EP to post for everyone to look at?

Viv
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Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:44 pm

Viv wrote:I would be dead upset if people took my rantings and such as fact with out checking, if their is a hole in my thinking I am the first to want to know were it is.
Viv, but I don't see a hole in my thinking. I see a hole in yours. You are welcome to try to plug it up. I will sit contentedly and watch you sweat. If in the process you manage to show me a hole in my thinking, well, I'll take notice, eat crow and amend my thinking.
Viv wrote:it looks like we will have to build one to test it:-)
Oh, that would be very nice. I am certain everyone will be delighted to see it. Just don't be discouraged if it doesn't work. Few pulsejets work right off the bat (as you may have discovered), especially the odd ones.
Viv wrote:Do you have a scan of the EP to post for everyone to look at?
What scan are you talking about? I can provide three or four different (but essentilly similar) sketches from textbooks, used to illustrate the principle.

Here's a picture of a turbojet based on E-P combustors. No, it is not mine. No, it is not Reynst's either.

PS. You are a pain, Viv. Add one more beer to the list you are already obliged to buy me when I visit the Old Blighty.
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Post by Viv » Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:07 pm

brunoogorelec wrote:
Viv wrote:I would be dead upset if people took my rantings and such as fact with out checking, if their is a hole in my thinking I am the first to want to know were it is.
Viv, but I don't see a hole in my thinking. I see a hole in yours. You are welcome to try to plug it up. I will sit contentedly and watch you sweat. If in the process you manage to show me a hole in my thinking, well, I'll take notice, eat crow and amend my thinking.
Viv wrote:it looks like we will have to build one to test it:-)
Oh, that would be very nice. I am certain everyone will be delighted to see it. Just don't be discouraged if it doesn't work. Few pulsejets work right off the bat (as you may have discovered), especially the odd ones.
Viv wrote:Do you have a scan of the EP to post for everyone to look at?
What scan are you talking about? I can provide three or four different (but essentilly similar) sketches from textbooks, used to illustrate the principle.

Here's a picture of a turbojet based on E-P combustors. No, it is not mine. No, it is not Reynst's either.

PS. You are a pain, Viv. Add one more beer to the list you are already obliged to buy me when I visit the Old Blighty.
Hey buddy show me a working EP and I will buy you crate of beer!

And were the hell did that picture come from? that is a step to fare for sure.

Viv
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Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:27 pm

Viv wrote:were the hell did that picture come from? that is a step to fare for sure.
It's a 1979 patent by somebody or other. Who also claims there's no backflow into the combustor even with the outer pressurization. But never mind.

It's actually funny that you mention the working E-P engine because a year ago or so, I purchased a lockup garage with a nice little workshop inside, almost ideal for building pulsejet prototypes. This was done in the vain hope of finding time soon to work on an engine myself. (Fat chance!)

The first project I considered was a pulse-ramjet fed by an old-fashioned original E-P engine with steel poppet valves.

Here's the first sketch of one of the combustor intakes.
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Post by Mike Everman » Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:36 pm

cool. I've been meaning to draw up a similar valve, but with cylindrical not conical sealing for a valved PJ. If you make it a close fitting cylinder and port it properly, you won't have the clatter of a sealing contact or valve flex failures. the spring preload needs adjustability so the valve-and-spring to be close to the engine's natural frequency and to account for the fact that the valve throw will be proportionate to thrust...
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Post by Mike Everman » Mon Nov 24, 2003 7:08 pm

What bothers me about the Blast Compression approaches I've seen, and I've not seen many, is that the designs seem to expect that the hot exhaust of one chamber will compress fuel mix in the other without touching it off prematurely. Seems to me there should be a plug of non-fueled air as a buffer so that the compression can take place before ignition, or fuel introduced at the appropriate time with special attention paid to instantaneous mixing.

I suppose the ultimate goal here is: "Valveless Blast compression in alternating chambers with self-sustaining ignition"

Barring that, compromises creep in, in the form of fuel injection, electronic ignition, or valve heads slaved together to alternate mechanically.
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Post by Viv » Mon Nov 24, 2003 7:16 pm

Mike Everman wrote:What bothers me about the Blast Compression approaches I've seen, and I've not seen many, is that the designs seem to expect that the hot exhaust of one chamber will compress fuel mix in the other without touching it off prematurely. Seems to me there should be a plug of non-fueled air as a buffer so that the compression can take place before ignition, or fuel introduced at the appropriate time with special attention paid to instantaneous mixing.

I suppose the ultimate goal here is: "Valveless Blast compression in alternating chambers with self-sustaining ignition"

Barring that, compromises creep in, in the form of fuel injection, electronic ignition, or valve heads slaved together to alternate mechanically.
I swear to you Bruno it is nothing to do with me! I am just the bad influence around here:-)

I may choke laughing so much though:-)

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Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:15 pm

Viv wrote:I may choke laughing so much though:-)
I hope you at least turn slightly blue in the face, just to wipe that smug grin off! :o)

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Post by Mike Everman » Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:23 pm

I swore publicly that I was going to stay out of this one!
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Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:38 pm

Mike Everman wrote:the designs seem to expect that the hot exhaust of one chamber will compress fuel mix in the other without touching it off prematurely. Seems to me there should be a plug of non-fueled air as a buffer so that the compression can take place before ignition, or fuel introduced at the appropriate time with special attention paid to instantaneous mixing.
OK, I guess there's nothing else for me to do but put the teacher's cap back on.

It is fallacy to view ignition as something instantaneous. Ordinary combustion in a fuel-air mixture is slow. I don’t have numbers at my fingertips right now, but believe me, it’s slow for our purposes.

There’s a lot of work to be done before fuel will ignite, especially liquid fuel, in which the tiny droplets have to evaporate before it will even think of combusting. The mixture has to be heated up to a certain temperature. If the fuel is in complex molecules, they have to dissociate into simpler ones. Oxygen has to get close enough for reaction to start. Other fuel and oxygen molecules have to be close enough so that the energy the combustion gives off will set off the process in the neighboring molecules etc. The lower the pressure, the slower and less effective the process because the distance between the molecules is greater.

When the hot blast hits the cold mixture, it will NOT ignite it. That happy event if relatively far in its future. What happens is the formation of the so-called hot-cold interface. It is a physical barrier that acts in many ways like a piston face. As heat exchange and pressure exchange take place, the interface gradually disintegrates, but the process takes time. While time passes, the interface moves and compresses the cold mixture.

If you filmed the hot-cold interface with a very high speed camera, you would see tiny tendrils of ignition gradually moving from the hot side towards the cold, getting longer, more tortuous and more numerous and developing new branches until the entire cold side is completely filled. That’s what happens in real life and, as I said, it takes time.

That is why the hot blast can and will compress the cold mixture and why it will effectively ignite it only when the mixture is already compressed as far as it will go.

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Post by Bruno Ogorelec » Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:53 pm

To demonstrate how slow deflagration is, I'll give you the events in the car engine combustion chamber. You want to ignite the mixture well before the piston reaches top dead center because it is slow. The pressure takes its sweet time to build up. So, you are still compressing it after you have already initiated combustion. There's alot yopu can do while the flame lazily travels through the mixture and the combustion products are released and increase the internal pressure so much that it takes over and pushes the piston at some notable force.

Bigger pulsejets should not work that much faster than car engines. 240 Hz of the typical Dynajet is equivalent to 28800 rpm of a 4-stroke engine, but 100 Hz of a big Lockwood is something like 12000 rpm. I guess it's the same ballpark.

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