the Inertance valve

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larry cottrill
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Re: the Inertance valve

Post by larry cottrill » Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:10 pm

WebPilot wrote:Hi GRIM,
I am glad to read you are enjoying the thread.
Flow lags pressure by 90° or pressure leads flow by 90°.
This is a property of an RL circuit excited by a sinusoidal voltage in electricity/electronics.
GRIM -

I have always found the resemblance of the jet pipe to a transmitting antenna fascinating. I used to use a simple wire as an antenna for low-power ham transmitters (this is known as a "Zep" antenna, since it is exactly what was used on the great Zeppellins of another era). Its length is precisely set for the frequency you're using, i.e. the antenna is "resonant" at that exact frequency. Here's how it works (you may already know this, but it may be new to some):

The transmitter sources RF alternating current swings in its output stage. However, at the farthest point of the antenna, it is impossible for current to flow in the wire, because it terminates at a porcelain or glass insulator. At the nearest point of course, there is almost zero resistance at the frequency in question, and current can flow at whatever rate the final stage can deliver. So, as the final stage current swings high, there is increasing flow at the near point into the wire. The charge represented by that current accumulates in the wire! However, the accumulation is greatest at the far point (the insulated end where current is zero) and nil at the near point (where there is no resistance). In between, the current tapers off and the net charge increases from near point to far point. The charge is represented at any point in the wire at a given moment in time as a particular voltage.

At the moment in the cycle where the transmitter stops pumping current (the current graph crosses the zero point of the sine curve), it has delivered all the charge it can, and at this moment of the cycle, the far end of the wire has been pumped up to maximum voltage, and there is zero current in the entire wire! The voltage is greatest at the far end and, at this moment, graphs as a quarter of a sine curve with a zero value at the near end.

The transmitter now crosses into the negative part of the current cycle (it begins to "sink" current), and the charge in the wire now acts as a high voltage "generator" feeding the near point. As the current at the near point increases over time, this charge is drained with current building at the near point but still zero (naturally) at the far point. The near point has no capability of holding charge, so its voltage is always zero. The charge in the wire decreases over the next quarter of the cycle until it is exhausted. At the moment when the voltage / charge of the entire wire is zero, maximum current is attained at the near point (this current is "negative", i.e. opposite to the maximum current we started out with at the beginning of the cycle). The whole process now repeats with charge and current reversed from what we saw before.

When you graph it out, the voltage along the wire is always a quarter sine curve (we might say 90 degrees) which is farthest from zero at the insulated far end, and always zero at the near end. The current graphs as exactly the opposite, maximized at the near end and always zero at the far end. But, at the moment of maximum current, the voltage all along the wire is zero -- and at the moment of maximum voltage, the current in the entire wire is zero. The curves simply rise and fall as partial sine curves of varying magnitude (like the side view of a jump rope being worked by two kids, if you could only see half its length). If we look at the charge in the wire as feeding the near point current, there is indeed a "90 degree lag" between voltage and current (i.e. between pressure and flow).

The frequency of resonance of such an antenna is determined by only two factors: the length of the wire and the speed of light. Unlike our pulsejets, the swings are always perfect sine curves, because all accidentally generated harmonics in the transmitter are rigorously suppressed before the signal gets to the antenna.

L Cottrill

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Re: the Inertance valve

Post by WebPilot » Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:03 pm

larry cottrill wrote: ...
The frequency of resonance of such an antenna is determined by only two factors: the length of the wire and the speed of light. Unlike our pulsejets, the swings are always perfect sine curves, ...
I disagree.

I posted on the Old Forum that the V-1 combustion chamber pressure pulse is a summation of a variety of sine waves of varying amplitudes, frequencies and phases, plus a DC bias component. I've reposted that graphic.

It's as applicable now as the day I first posted it.

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Re: the Inertance valve

Post by larry cottrill » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:25 pm

WebPilot wrote:I disagree.
I posted on the Old Forum that the V-1 combustion chamber pressure pulse is a summation of a variety of sine waves of varying amplitudes, frequencies and phases, plus a DC bias component. I've reposted that graphic.
It's as applicable now as the day I first posted it.
But I have said nothing to dispute that. I was only stating that the wave in the antenna is a pure sine curve without harmonics, while the pulsejet waveform is not (even in an FWE! ;-). Of course, your station can radiate harmonics (if you are a sloppy builder), but then you soon get a surly registered letter from the FCC! In the antenna, a DC component would almost never be present regardless of the (modern) transmitter design, and would be meaningless to its function in any case.

Any repetitive wave form, including ramps and square waves, can be built from harmonic sine waves (though you will have to carefully control the amplitudes, in most cases, to arrive at precisely the desired outcome). A square wave, for example, is the summation of a fundamental frequency and all its possible odd harmonics, if I remember correctly.

L Cottrill

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Re: the Inertance valve

Post by WebPilot » Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:43 am

Fluidic capacitance has been added to the tube.

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Re: the Inertance valve

Post by WebPilot » Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:34 pm

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Last edited by WebPilot on Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Viv
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Re: the Inertance valve

Post by Viv » Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:47 pm

Makes sense for me but thats also my background coming to the fore, in the past I have always been a little leery of electrical analogies due to the original off forum acoustics group work.

Good work Forrest, you have definitely progressed the art with your recent insights and work.

Viv
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

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Re: the Inertance valve

Post by WebPilot » Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:51 am

Viv wrote:Makes sense for me but thats also my background coming to the fore, in the past I have always been a little leery of electrical analogies due to the original off forum acoustics group work.

Good work Forrest, you have definitely progressed the art with your recent insights and work.
Thanks for the kind words, Viv.

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Re: the Inertance valve

Post by WebPilot » Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:01 pm

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Re: the Inertance valve

Post by WebPilot » Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:32 am

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Re: the Inertance valve

Post by WebPilot » Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:03 am

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Re: the Inertance valve

Post by WebPilot » Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:11 am

This non-post is an error on my part ...

Make sure you read the previous post !

... in the meantime, while waiting for my next installment, please enjoy the "thong of the day" from 105.9 the X, radio station'ed here, in the 'burgh.

You can also read and watch what the locals have to say about the Steelers and the 'guins. FYI short for Pens or Penguins.
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Re: the Inertance valve

Post by WebPilot » Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:35 pm

Some of you may be wondering where or just how far am I going with all of this.

Well, here is where ...

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This is my baby. I've been 'sitting on her' for the last 3 days and each morning when I wake up, she still 'looks good to me'. So, I think she's ready to be posted.

I'll be explaining the critical parts in my posts to come.
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Re: the Inertance valve

Post by larry cottrill » Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:38 pm

Very nice. At first glance this seems to validate my "flask and mortar" model (parallel resonant vessels merged at a flat plate). It also resembles an RF amplifier's output tank circuit (circuit 2) and the transmitting antenna described earlier (circuit 1) -- or perhaps, you would reverse the roles! No matter, they have to be in resonance with one another for the scheme to work. The simple wire antenna is a tuned LC circuit, because (as you know) the conductive wire has both inductance and capacitance that increase with length (this is why the length alone is the property that determines the resonant frequency). In UHF circuits, the "coils" are sometimes nothing more than little horseshoes or half-loops of carefully sized wire.

Very cool development.

L Cottrill

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Re: the Inertance valve

Post by WebPilot » Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:27 am

Thanks Larry.

Oh, there's a rev A, already.

There seems to be confusion again concerning the calculation of c(T), the speed of sound, 3 posts ago. I am going to add an example c(T) calculation at the end of my 1/3.834 wavelength computation, but post it here.

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Re: the Inertance valve

Post by WebPilot » Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:58 pm

 I wondered where this thread went. I remembered doing something like this, but forgot the title.

 This may have been the last thing I was working on before I got faster ISP service, a new machine, a new OS and lots of new software to learn. No wonder I never thought to come back to it.

 I've been thinking along these lines lately and it may not be a waste of your time to look this over again.

 Stay tuned, something's coming.
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