Pressure Gain Combustion (Now Proven)

Jets that defy normal classification

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Zippiot
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Re: Pressure Gain Combustion (Now Proven)

Post by Zippiot » Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:13 pm

Just thinkin outside the box.
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Re: Pressure Gain Combustion (Now Proven)

Post by luc » Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:44 pm

Zippiot wrote:Just thinkin outside the box.
Indeed ... Well outside the box ...

To be more accurate ... Turn your PJ 90° tail pipe toward the engine and move it sideway so the tail pipe connects with the turbine, which would be more like it.

And by the way ... Don't forget to take all accessories (Starter and electricals) out of there too ... He he he ... :lol:

Cya,
Luc
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Re: Pressure Gain Combustion (Now Proven)

Post by Zippiot » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:49 pm

Copy paste has failed me again :(
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Re: Pressure Gain Combustion (Now Proven)

Post by luc » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:05 pm

Zippiot wrote:Copy paste has failed me again :(
Anyway ... I hear ya and i know you fully understand where we are going ...

Oupppssss .... New turbo just got in ... Yesssssssssssss ... :D

Okeyyy .... I back into the testcell again ... Byeeeee ... Vroummmmmmmmm :arrow:
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Re: Pressure Gain Combustion (Now Proven)

Post by Zippiot » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:12 pm

Would love to see a vid of the exhaust, very interested to see how the flame behaves.
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Re: Pressure Gain Combustion (Now Proven)

Post by Nicole » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:26 pm

Hi Zippiot,

Sorry, pretty design but that configuration will not work for the reasons that John mentioned, turbines don't like that type of flow regime and to make matters worse pulse jets don't run correctly under induced flow conditions.
Nicole

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Re: Pressure Gain Combustion (Now Proven)

Post by luc » Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:41 pm

Nicole wrote:Hi Zippiot,

Sorry, pretty design but that configuration will not work for the reasons that John mentioned, turbines don't like that type of flow regime and to make matters worse pulse jets don't run correctly under induced flow conditions.
I simply love it when peoples talk trough their hat like this for one should first, do his own *'n setup and testing before venturing into such stupid and totally empty affirmation.

So ... Why the hell does it work now ... You tell me that you GENIUS .... WHY ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

We're already up to 15,000 rpm yet ... With only two setups and trials and a shit load of turbos yet to come and here is one saying "Duhhh ... It won't work".

So you tell me that ... Why the * does it work NOW.

Damn ... Why do I still trouble myself writting here ...
Luc
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Re: Pressure Gain Combustion (Now Proven)

Post by Zippiot » Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:48 pm

Sorry to steal the thread a bit Luc but, to Nicole:
Are you sure about the pj not working well under those conditions? Isnt induced flow how you start one and wouldn't it simulate dynamic conditions as if it were mounted on a plane of sorts...

And about the turbine not running well.
Yes the pulsing of the pj would mess with the flow but does the intake really force out that much air to destroy the flow off the comrpessor. Assuming that the pj and turbine have their own fuel source, why couldn't they run together?
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Re: Pressure Gain Combustion (Now Proven)

Post by Zippiot » Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:57 pm

I'll make a new thread in a few...but
Just wondering about how a pj's intake would effect the performance of other types of jets, like this patent I found on Leo's site

Image
PJ/Ramjet hybrid

Could be easy enough to build/test before jumping into the turbine+pj hybrid.
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Re: Pressure Gain Combustion (Now Proven)

Post by Zippiot » Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:31 pm

Before I go I found this patent which is similar to what I posted
Image
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Re: Pressure Gain Combustion (Now Proven)

Post by luc » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:53 pm

Zippiot wrote:Sorry to steal the thread a bit Luc but, to Nicole:
Are you sure about the pj not working well under those conditions? Isnt induced flow how you start one and wouldn't it simulate dynamic conditions as if it were mounted on a plane of sorts...

And about the turbine not running well.
Yes the pulsing of the pj would mess with the flow but does the intake really force out that much air to destroy the flow off the comrpessor. Assuming that the pj and turbine have their own fuel source, why couldn't they run together?
Hi Zippiot,

Look Budy ... Don't waist your time with this one.

Take more time instead doing reaserches on "Who is writting" and you'll see what I mean ...

There is a shit load of differences between a "Kitchen" and PJs ... Unless the "Cook" is fed from somewhere OR best said ... from "Someone" else.

Was'nt it Irakies who use to put their army's HQs next to school yards and hospitals so the coalison would not bomb them????

I also do remember how the entire world called this measure and I also have my own single word for this.

Anyway ... This topic is over for me for I saw it all here. If any of your guys are interested in getting updates on this project, you know where to reach me directly for I am "Unchecking" reply notification with this one (Sorry Mike).

Regards,
Luc
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Re: Pressure Gain Combustion (Now Proven)

Post by Mike Everman » Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:05 pm

OK, whatever.
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Re: Pressure Gain Combustion (Now Proven)

Post by Irvine.J » Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:48 pm

Zippy those designs from melaneric are the absolute top of the game. I think you've already got the best chance since you took the time to look at available literature, and see the designs for the merits of which they were. Something sorely lost on lots of people trying new things sometimes, hey including myself from time to time.

Many just don't look at the work that solved many of the problems many years ago, however technology may not have been available at the time to do what they needed to do, but I'll bet it is now! You're time spent in reconnaissance is never wasted, but without it your time wasted is huge. I think you've got it under control, now get back to work! :D

I've seen heaps of his drawings from the mighty Melaneric (Man i love his stuff) that I was lucky enough to have sent to me over the years, and man, he (Melaneric) just thought through *pronc- "Thawt Threw" his designs so well, so if you decide to give it a go, by following in Melanerics footstep to ground yourself, then using your own intuition take it to the next level, you can't go wrong, and we all hope you succeed!

That goes the same for all of us.
Last edited by Irvine.J on Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pressure Gain Combustion (Now Proven)

Post by Nicole » Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:23 pm

Zippiot wrote:Before I go I found this patent which is similar to what I posted
Image


Hi Zippiot,

Yes, I have seen this before when I did some research for one of our projects. Here is a link for the thread where Viv,John and Bruno discussed that patent.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4429&start=0&st=0&s ... t=melenric

You will find that interesting, I'm sure.
For your other question I will answer soon, promiss.
Nicole

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Re: Pressure Gain Combustion (Now Proven)

Post by Nicole » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:10 pm

Zippiot wrote:Sorry to steal the thread a bit Luc but, to Nicole:
Are you sure about the pj not working well under those conditions? Isnt induced flow how you start one and wouldn't it simulate dynamic conditions as if it were mounted on a plane of sorts...

And about the turbine not running well.
Yes the pulsing of the pj would mess with the flow but does the intake really force out that much air to destroy the flow off the comrpessor. Assuming that the pj and turbine have their own fuel source, why couldn't they run together?
Hi Zippiot,

Don't worry about the thread ;-)

A free turbine mounted on the exhaust of a pulse jet stay (as I'm concerne) a simple free turbine mounted on the exhaust of a pulse jet.

We know that a valveless pulse jet is a tube open at both ends. What's happens if you put some pressure in the middle of the tube? it rushes out of both ends, I'm right?


We design our engines to have an impedance to that flow at the intake so the preferential flow is out the exhaust (normally).
But put a free turbine attached to the exhaust of a pulse jet, why should the pressure rush out of the exhaust and have to do work turning the turbine, when it could also rush out of the intake and do nothing? It is only the impedance to flow that causes that pressure rise in the cc (the impedance is made up of a few things including acoustics), but the cc pressure will be low.

I guess thats one of the reasons John chose to use a valved engine for his turbo prop experiment.
The problem with a valveless engine it can't generate much in the way of differential pressure as its entirely dependent on the impedance of the intake to back-flow.
It's a basic thermodynamics problem.

You can find interesting those books about fluid & thermodynamics :

Applied Thermodynamics for Engineering Technologists (fifth edition) by T.D. Eastop and A. McConkey at Prentice Hall
Fluid Mechanics by Robert A. Granger at Dover Publications, inc.

This is why Mike wanted to load the compressor to make the turbine work as this would then show the pressure problem in the cc.

Hoping than its help you,
Nicole

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