WTF Mate! F/A 18

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Viv
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WTF Mate! F/A 18

Post by Viv » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:41 am

As the title says and a hat tip to AP and Giz

http://jalopnik.com/5313788/fa+18-fight ... t-building

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racketmotorman
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Re: WTF Mate! F/A 18

Post by racketmotorman » Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:02 am

LOL.... I wonder how its staying in the air without any lift in this attitude ..............concocted ??

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Re: WTF Mate! F/A 18

Post by Zippiot » Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:49 am

The other day an Airbus A380 flew about 400 feet over the park I work at, on its way to SFO airport. It had 2 fighter jets flying escort, or at least close enough to look like escort; maybe the plane wandered too low for the nearby Moffet AFB. Snapped a pic on my phone but its not worth posting, cant see anything.
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Re: WTF Mate! F/A 18

Post by Viv » Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:41 pm

racketmotorman wrote:LOL.... I wonder how its staying in the air without any lift in this attitude ..............concocted ??
Hi John

If you have a close look at the original pic you can see a couple of condensation trails forming off the leading edge of the wings and strakes ether side of the cockpit, looks like the guy is pulling a reasonably hard turn.

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Re: WTF Mate! F/A 18

Post by racketmotorman » Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:06 pm

Hi Viv

Hard turn it might have been , but unless one adds in a vertical lift component the aircraft simply drops out of the sky , in a tight turn one lifts the aircraft nose so as to produce that vertical vector of thrust , if you don't, you loose altitude , and if only a few hundred feet from the ground and performing a 90 degree banked turn as this guy is suppose to be , you'd be in the dirt before you knew it . I should mention that I was qualified commercial pilot in my younger days, and have done a few steep turns, not in anything like the aircraft in the pic but all aircraft have to obey the laws of physics , and without a vertical ( to the ground) lift component you drop out of the sky , its most certainly a concocted pic , whoever did it doesn't know much about aircraft flight .

Cheers
John

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Re: WTF Mate! F/A 18

Post by hinote » Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:55 pm

racketmotorman wrote:Hi Viv
Hard turn it might have been , but unless one adds in a vertical lift component the aircraft simply drops out of the sky , in a tight turn one lifts the aircraft nose so as to produce that vertical vector of thrust , if you don't, you loose altitude , and if only a few hundred feet from the ground and performing a 90 degree banked turn as this guy is suppose to be , you'd be in the dirt before you knew it . I should mention that I was qualified commercial pilot in my younger days, and have done a few steep turns, not in anything like the aircraft in the pic but all aircraft have to obey the laws of physics , and without a vertical ( to the ground) lift component you drop out of the sky , its most certainly a concocted pic , whoever did it doesn't know much about aircraft flight .
Here's some things to think about:
1. The observed condition may have been transient and short-lived.
2. The right aileron is up--indicating the pilot is rolling back toward normal when the photo was taken.
3. Sustained knife-edge flight requires some sort of lift--in military fighter aircraft it's commonly produced by the engines and a nose-up attitude.
4. It wouldn't take a lot of off-vertical orientation to create the necessary lift vector, IMO. Note--the leading edges are drooped, in low speed/high lift mode. A little top rudder would help too. I'll bet a talkative F-18 driver would have lots to say on this subject.

I had a very close encounter with an F-18 in the canyon of the the E. fork of the Walker River, near Bridgeport, CA. I was looking for a good fishing hole to work--and looked up just in time to see an F-18 within the (relatively) narrow canyon walls. He must have been very good at it, and knew the area conditions well; he actually waved at me as he passed by, almost vertical (knife-edge). Rolled through to opposite bank and disappeared around the bend, holding an altitude of something like 200 feet above the river. Ballsy stuff!

A most amazing experience.

Bill

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Re: WTF Mate! F/A 18

Post by hinote » Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:06 pm

racketmotorman wrote: Hard turn it might have been , but unless one adds in a vertical lift component the aircraft simply drops out of the sky , in a tight turn one lifts the aircraft nose so as to produce that vertical vector of thrust
I submit the original photo with slight mods. Assuming the pillar on the hotel is vertical (!), a line drawn at right angles and adjacent to the C/L of the aircraft reveals a slightly pos alpha (angle of attack)--possibly a degree or 2. Enough for the engines to help out IMO.

Also, I believe it's quite common for the pilot to induce a nose-up correction as a part of a steep roll maneuver. It becomes reflexive after some stick time.

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Re: WTF Mate! F/A 18

Post by Viv » Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:31 pm

Hi Bill Hi John

all points noted and when I get to flight school I will have it in my note book ;-) the right angle off the building line Bill drew in does show the slight nose up attitude but I had not noticed it all with out it! it also looks as if the top wing is back a bit further than the lower so maybe he is not ninety degrees or flat turning?

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Re: WTF Mate! F/A 18

Post by racketmotorman » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:44 am

Hi Guys

Now lets do the maths , assuming a 5 degree nose high , we use Tan 5 degrees to get the vertical component of the thrust , Tan 5 deg = 0.087 or ~9% max of the thrust ......bugger all , she's in the dirt .

Theres also a problem with the green stuff in the pic , assuming its vegetation , that puts the aircraft at <200 ft .

Perhaps we also need to checkout the shadow of the tail fin , its fairly strong for an overcast day .

Theres also the matter of FAA rules regarding flight near residential areas , separation requirements ................just too many things wrong with this pic :-((

The F 18 is a good aircraft , I've watched them "perform" many times , and as for "jet jocks" they always have an opinion :-))

Cheers
John

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Re: WTF Mate! F/A 18

Post by Viv » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:05 pm

Hi John

There is some stuff about the picture that makes me wonder but I did look on the gold cup racing web site and they did have a display flown by Fa 18s, the vegetation is a problem but we don't know the elevation of the photographer and what f setting he had on or lens, there is a definite 'Pull" going on with the field of view to my eye, maybe some one with photography expertise could jump in on this?

I assume as well that the condo is by the harbor were the race was held and that the plane is out across the water and not over land, but its an assumption as I can only find two shots on the gold cup site showing Fa 18s (but they were grey as well;-)

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Re: WTF Mate! F/A 18

Post by hinote » Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:22 pm

Viv wrote:Hi John

There is some stuff about the picture that makes me wonder but I did look on the gold cup racing web site and they did have a display flown by Fa 18s, the vegetation is a problem but we don't know the elevation of the photographer and what f setting he had on or lens, there is a definite 'Pull" going on with the field of view to my eye, maybe some one with photography expertise could jump in on this?

I assume as well that the condo is by the harbor were the race was held and that the plane is out across the water and not over land, but its an assumption as I can only find two shots on the gold cup site showing Fa 18s (but they were grey as well;-)
I guess I'm qualified to comment here; I ran the family camera store for more than 30 years and did a lot of pro photography on the side for extra money.

I believe you're looking at a shot made with a telephoto lens--degree of magnification unknown, but the foreshortening effect you've spotted is a result, and is called "drawing" in photographer's terms. It's the reason why a certain focal length is appropos for a portrait (otherwise the nose, etc is either exaggerated or flattened out!). In this case the aircraft appears closer to the condo than it probably was, and the reduced depth of field puts the vegetation in the foreground out of the plane of focus.

The sky in the background MAY be exhibiting a partly cloudy conditions, with some blue showing in patches. I would question this as a definite, because of the number of digitizings it may have been subjected to.

FWIW

Bill

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Re: WTF Mate! F/A 18

Post by racketmotorman » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:15 pm

Hi Bill

You've got it sorted :-)

If one scales off the pic , that aircraft only has a ~30 ft wing span where as in reality it has a span of ~41 ft , that aircraft is a long long way away from the building and probably at a considerably higher altitude than the pic indicates .

This could explain the tail shadow and bright reflection on the aircraft despite the building looking like its in overcast , the aircraft was in a sunny spot .

LOL.......could you imagine the damage to a building and occupants from an aircraft of that size and thrust just outside the windows , law suites would be flying thick and fast, ......faster than the F 18 :-)

My partner Linda has been doing digital artwork for years and what she can do with a pic defies understanding , I've become very skeptical of all photos in the Media , manipulation and enhancement is the name of the game .

Cheers
John

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Re: WTF Mate! F/A 18

Post by Viv » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:17 pm

Hi John

I know what you mean, now a days I start with the assumption its digitally altered in some way and work backwards from there.

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