F86-HPX-Sabre, By Rossco & IrvineJ

tufty
Posts: 845
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:12 pm
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: France
Contact:

Post by tufty » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:44 am

It seems to me that, given their "deep" fuselage, the EE/BAC Lightning would be a good candidate for a "bent" pulsejet (especially, I might add, one of Eric's ramjet augmented models)...

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk ... index.html

they really were the most awesome machines, used to watch them taking off at the local airbase (we had Vulcans on occasion, too). Most amazing little planes. They'd trundle down the runway at seemingly walking pace, then rotate the nose up, hit the afterburner, and disappear vertically, leaving only a roaring in the ears. The noise, even from hundreds of yards away, was awe-inspiring, I can recall it even now, 35 or so years on.

Simon

Anders Troberg
Posts: 334
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:38 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: Central Sweden
Contact:

Post by Anders Troberg » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:49 am

Man, that saab bears striking resemblance to my ex-girlfriend...
Well, "Tunnan" means "Barrel" (as in "barrel of water", not as in "gun barrel")...

It was one of the earliest jets with swept wings, and once the landing gear is in and you see it in the air, it's like watching dolphins play, as it's transformed into a creature of grace and agility.

Apart from being a good flyer, I think the fat body of the aircraft would leave plenty of room for engine and the other stuff. Also, like the other aircraft, it has the intake in front, making it less likely to choke in some manouvres.
To be honest I originally though one of the early migs would do very well, then we thought that the sabre would be moreso instantly recognizable, its was the only thing that tipped the balance in its favour really.
Ah, but you'll need an opponent as well!

Sadly, most of the model business is based on British and US aircraft, with a few German thrown in as opponents. As for the rest of the world's air forces, very few models are sold, even if there has been a well deserved upswing in Soviet WW2 aircraft recently (although, I'm sad to see, no good Mig-3 yet). Smaller local companies might do other aircraft, such as the Swedish J-21, but they tend to be expensive and require more experienced builders.

If you are not afraid to try experimental aircraft or just want inspiration, a lot of inspiration can be found at http://luft46.com (I got that link a long time ago from the banned ex-member that we prefer to not talk about).

Viv
Posts: 2158
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:35 pm
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Normandy, France, Wales, Europe
Contact:

Post by Viv » Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:33 pm

tufty wrote:It seems to me that, given their "deep" fuselage, the EE/BAC Lightning would be a good candidate for a "bent" pulsejet (especially, I might add, one of Eric's ramjet augmented models)...

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk ... index.html

they really were the most awesome machines, used to watch them taking off at the local airbase (we had Vulcans on occasion, too). Most amazing little planes. They'd trundle down the runway at seemingly walking pace, then rotate the nose up, hit the afterburner, and disappear vertically, leaving only a roaring in the ears. The noise, even from hundreds of yards away, was awe-inspiring, I can recall it even now, 35 or so years on.

Simon
Watching Victors take off from the end of the runway was about the same

Viv
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

Viv's blog

Monsieur le commentaire

Rossco
Posts: 589
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:16 pm
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: Australia, Brisbane
Contact:

Post by Rossco » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:08 pm

Thank you all, especialy Anders.

I really like the classics, rather than new planes myself.
We are starting into a BAe Hawk for a "modern model", although the Sabre is pissing on it in near every way except slow landings. I dont know if we'll continue on this one.

Your right Anders, about most models following the norm, and are of US and British origins. We are certainly not into the norm, and your ideas and links are much appriciated.

The Lightning is interesting Simon, Crazy wings. Trailing edge wing tips, or delta... i cant decide. And the nose! Yes, lots of power to be fitted inside!
Bent, or twin option! Now i see your reasoning for suggesting Erics ram augmentor for that one, from the description of any onlooker on takeoff. It seems to be the first comment every time about these.
But, surely these things will make enough noise already? Ok, they do need some fire to be impressive in the publics eye! But were planning some tail oil action... we could beef this up to be a flame thrower as well as just smoke!

Another in your link Anders, Heinkel He 162D, grabs my attention.
Image
Its just that they look to have come about from some apprentice not knowing the left wing from the right! (ill get shot down for that comment, i know)
I was doing some work in my wind tunnell yesterday on foward swept wings, with some surprising (for me) results.

(i suppose i have to pause here to mention that "work in my wind tunnell" is actualy playing with a steel airfoil out the window of my truck, on the way to work)

HUGE lift!
A lot of noise, probably from the trailing edge not being parallel to travel, which must be causing some terrible turbulance.
UNSTABLE! Angle of attack is very touchy, with the zero angle window being very small. The whole load cell attachment actuator (arm) went into an uncontrollable porpoise when forcably held at zero angle. Imediate emergency test shutdown was required. (swear, pull arm in window, and nurse rist).
Some very interesting test result recorded, well worth the time and expenditure.

Ok, im going to go and try to do some video of the Sabre in action for you guys now. You deserve a reward for reading all my ramblings.

Rossco
Big, fast, broke, fix it, bigger, better, faster...
[url=callto://aussierossco]Image[/url]

pgup
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:46 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: US

Post by pgup » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:57 pm

Anders Troberg wrote:(I got that link a long time ago from the banned ex-member that we prefer to not talk about).
Which banned ex-member? There've been several over the years...

Rossco
Posts: 589
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:16 pm
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: Australia, Brisbane
Contact:

Post by Rossco » Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:14 am

that we prefer to not talk about).
Pretty much says it. Leave it alone and we shall continue with the constructive conversation about a topic rather than stirring something irrelivant. Anything to add is otherwise much appritiated.

Rossco
Big, fast, broke, fix it, bigger, better, faster...
[url=callto://aussierossco]Image[/url]

Viv
Posts: 2158
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:35 pm
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Normandy, France, Wales, Europe
Contact:

Post by Viv » Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:24 am

you know that He 162 looks very much like the new Eclipse single engine jet at Oshkosh this year

Viv
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

Viv's blog

Monsieur le commentaire

Rossco
Posts: 589
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:16 pm
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: Australia, Brisbane
Contact:

Post by Rossco » Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:55 am

I found the Eclipse site now. Very nice!
http://www.eclipseaviation.com//

Concept jet! ha, nothing is new is it.

Rossco
Big, fast, broke, fix it, bigger, better, faster...
[url=callto://aussierossco]Image[/url]

Viv
Posts: 2158
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:35 pm
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Normandy, France, Wales, Europe
Contact:

Post by Viv » Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:12 am

Rossco wrote:I found the Eclipse site now. Very nice!
http://www.eclipseaviation.com//

Concept jet! ha, nothing is new is it.

Rossco
Its recycling man its the new black;-)

Old ideas made good in the 21st century

Viv
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

Viv's blog

Monsieur le commentaire

milisavljevic
Posts: 855
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 9:36 am
Antipspambot question: 125

Re: Eclipse Concept Jet

Post by milisavljevic » Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:16 am

Rossco wrote:Concept jet! ha, nothing is new is it.
Hello Rossco --

One of Eclipse Aviation's first actions was to purchase the Williams V-Jet II and all associated materials.
It has taken many years for Eclipse to "recycle" the concept (albeit with a single, more powerful engine),
but better late than never...

Of course, this design has roots that stretch back to WW-II -- and it is far from unique in this respect. :wink:

Young or old, both aircraft are beauties. Toot sweet! :P

Cheers,
M.

Edit: The attachment for this post does not seem to be visible after I log out... so here is the hyperlink.
no safe haven for merchant scum


for ye merchants who do the prop'r t'ing only if
ye be haul'd-up on charges b'fore ye ship-mates
an' threat'nd wit' forfeiture of all ye precious loot
hear this - so-called stand-up guys YE BE NOT

avast!
Cap'n M.

milisavljevic
Posts: 855
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 9:36 am
Antipspambot question: 125

Re: Eclipse Concept Jet

Post by milisavljevic » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:51 am


If anyone is curious as to who designed V-Jet II, you are probably not surprised to learn that it was none other
than Burt Rutan.* I think that this makes Burt the "architectural grandfather" of the new Eclipse Concept Jet. :wink:

Cheers,
M.

*Scaled Composites
no safe haven for merchant scum


for ye merchants who do the prop'r t'ing only if
ye be haul'd-up on charges b'fore ye ship-mates
an' threat'nd wit' forfeiture of all ye precious loot
hear this - so-called stand-up guys YE BE NOT

avast!
Cap'n M.

larry cottrill
Posts: 4140
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2003 1:17 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: Mingo, Iowa USA
Contact:

Post by larry cottrill » Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:07 pm

Rossco wrote:Spot on Larry, there was some nasty consequences here. We have spent much time now improving the flight of this little beast. As far as the model of a full sized Sabre I have flown in the simulator, they are quite horrid to fly... unless you are really moving. Energy fighters for sure. ... After many improvements, it flies very nicely! Even lands now, rather than flying on the ground till it stops! I didnt like the final drop to ground you had to do to get it down, at high speeds, just asking for trouble.
I would go so far as saying that it IS a sports plane now. A very fast one, but at 1/4 throttle, pleasant to fly, with a lot of extra power when you need it.
So, can't we at least have a quick peek at what you ended up with? It sounds to me like a lot of good sense and careful work has gone into the revised version.

I am not surprised at your perception of the intricacies of flying the Sabre. There are planes you can sit back and ride in, and planes you have to actually FLY. Most good fighters will be in the latter category. That's why a lot of candidates for fighter training don't make it, I guess. Even no less than Chuck Yeager almost bought the farm flying a Sabre inverted - but, that was a technical problem, of course, not basic flight characteristics (the ailerons would suddenly lock up when you settled into inverted level flight ... what a nice surprise ;-). But, he got through it and they were able to determine fairly quickly what the problem was. It had killed a few pilots before that, though.

L Cottrill
Last edited by larry cottrill on Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Eric
Posts: 1859
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 1:17 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by Eric » Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:16 pm

You can tell its a Rutan jet by the crazy window design :)
Image

Talking like a pirate does not qualify as experience, this should be common sense, as pirates have little real life experience in anything other than smelling bad, and contracting venereal diseases

Irvine.J
Posts: 1063
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:28 pm
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Sabre

Post by Irvine.J » Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:10 pm

Ok, as requested here is a video of the first flight of the JR-12.
Rossco did a fantastic job rendering the skin for it, heck he even rendered the engine as orange at the cc tapering down to a dull red at the tail. We took off together and then engaged in a bit of aerobatics. Rossco was traveling up past the 100mph mark, (he's the crazy one doing all kinds of hard G turns n loops.) where I was trying to keep it under 100 most of the time, it can fly at crazy speed, and can turn hard at low speed, we have begun construction today. Heres a Video, and a pic.... the video is kinda cool, in AVI format :)
I apologise for the low quality, my computer just can't handle the absolutely crazy flight model requirements as well as record a decent video at high res graphics at the same time. Anyway, I still like it.

http://www.mediafire.com/?a4dcen1znmx
Attachments
screenshot_3.JPG
screenshot_3.JPG (23.32 KiB) Viewed 666011 times
James- Image KEEPING IT REAL SINCE 1982
http://pulseairdefence.com
[url=callto://project42labs]Image[/url]

larry cottrill
Posts: 4140
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2003 1:17 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: Mingo, Iowa USA
Contact:

Impressive, Yes!

Post by larry cottrill » Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:52 pm

Nice one, mates! Just ran it out on my PC here at my day job. Man, I can dig that kind of action!

Beautiful little production, James! I need a U/C version of that ship for my first liquid-fuel Lady Anne (I wouldn't risk anything on my non-existent R/C skills ... ;-)

If the real thing works anything like that sim, it will be fabulous!

L Cottrill

Post Reply