Hydrogen

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Mark
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Hydrogen

Post by Mark » Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:59 am

Here's an interesting compound often in the news.

http://search.ebay.com/sodium-borohydri ... 1QQfromZR8

And here is another hydrogen forming substance.

http://www.powerball.net/process/index.html

I was again, just today, reading in a magazine that hydrogen is a long way off. It takes way more energy to make hydrogen that most any other fuel.

Mark

Mike Kirney
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Re: Hydrogen

Post by Mike Kirney » Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:37 am

Mark wrote:I was again, just today, reading in a magazine that hydrogen is a long way off. It takes way more energy to make hydrogen that most any other fuel.
I'm pretty sure I'll be just dust in a box by the time the 'hydrogen economy' comes into play. It is perhaps the most impractical fuel ever devised and there are so many other immediately workable alternatives that it will probably never become anything more than a curio for billionaires to tinker with. My money is already on steam and I will be ready to go when the petro-apocalypse comes. Everybody will be on foot dreaming about hydrogen except for me. I'll be steaming around robbing banks and stuff (like Mad Max but wearing Ralph Lauren). After all the coal and fuelwood is gone and steaming becomes impossible, I will get a sedan chair and hire a gang of midgets to carry me into Killaloe to buy my groceries. Quite frankly, I have more faith in the lowly burro than in futuristic hydrogen-fuelled automobiles. The real breakthrough will come when somebody figures out how to run a car on straight cash. As it stands you have to burn gas to go to work to pick up your cheque, then burn gas to go to the bank to cash it, and then you have to burn more gas to go to the gas station to buy the gas, and then burn even more gas going home, so that two dollar gallon really costs about three and if you factor in all the time and money spent to pump the oil and ship it and process it, well running a car on cash makes even more sense. What if you could just go into the garage, pop the hood, stuff a couple of twenties into your carburetor and go? Just the time saved would revolutionize society.
Trig IS fun.

yipster
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Post by yipster » Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:37 pm

i for one am pleased with this thread and think the real breakthrough wil be in splitting the waterbond better.
try http://www.chemistrycoach.com/periodic_tables.htm were this poem below popped out of an H element
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Lean close. Are you watching? Okay, now."

"What is it?"

"It's a hydrogen atom. Want me to create another?"

"How did you do that?"

"Well, this spherical space here on the table is a bubble of hard vacuum which I created by ... how proficient are you with n-dimensional vector calculus?"

"Um..."

"Okay, I'll simplify. What you see before you is an artificially created pocket universe."

"Cool! With stars and worlds and everything in it?"

"Well, so far it only contains a few dozen hydrogen atoms."

"Awww."

"But if you'll just wait a sec. There."

"Wow! What did you just do?"

"I cooled down the subatomic flux. Thus creating a lot of hydrogen atoms."

"What's that twinkling?"

"They're combining. Now we've got a lot of H2 molecules. Let's give it a stir."

"Stars! Gazillions of them! They're forming galaxies!"

"Keep watching."

"Whoops — that one just blew up. Now others are doing it."

"Supernovae. It's an important stage in the evolution of any universe. The stars were originally composed entirely of hydrogen. But under the intense gravitation, heat, and radiation at the heart of stars, hydrogen is transformed into iron, calcium, plutonium — into the entire periodic kingdom of elements, in fact."

"Nifty."

"Yes, and they're being released. Future generations of stars can have proper planets now."

"What's the big deal with planets? They don't even provide their own illumination."

"Life, old son — life! Watery oceans, long-chain hydrocarbons, the whole nine yards. Now we've got self-organizing systems. Complexity. Evolution. You get the most delightful animals."

"How far does it go?"

"There's no telling. It's usually about this point that I shut the universe down."

"What! Why?"

"If you let it go too long, you get intelligence. Tiny little spacecraft darting all about the place. The next thing you know, your entire universe is infested. They get into no end of mischief. Moving stars, rebuilding galaxies and whatnot."

"Sounds nasty."

"It is. Once intelligent life gets loose, your universe is worthless. The best thing to do then is simply tweak the constants again and watch every star blow itself to kingdom come."

"Well, this has all been very interesting. I'm going out for a drink now. Care to join me?"

"You run ahead, and I'll catch up with you later."

"What's the holdup?"

"I've got an emergent civilization on that blue-and-white planet there, and I want to wait until they can create pocket universes of their own before I shut things down."

"Why?"

"Oh, it's silly of me, I know. But destroying the universe is a lot more fun when the little bastards can see it coming."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

put any regular batery in a glas of water, wait a little and see the contacts bubble. the bigger bubbles beeing H the other O. simple, i call it beautifull and powerfull stuf. burning H and O you get superheated 4000 degree celcius clean steam capable of creating some more. manipulating the electrons in fuel cells i find also very interesting.

getting a little tired of electrolising glasses of water catching the H and O (did read somewhere this proces cost about 60 cents a liter) i went for some 10 liter bottles, H is than 3.80 euro, O 3.80 the liter. plus i had to sign the hydrogen wont be used for drugs. later maybe we cant play freely with water anymore...

great beginning for the clean atom number 1 energy world i thought. not only is it expensive, wich may be coursed by making it pressurised, liquified, transport, storage, sales etc, now you have to sign for the most comon atom.

1H -as only element- has NO neutron. In most hydrogen atoms the centre (or nucleus) contains only one proton. In 2H (deuterium) the nucleus contains an additional neutron particle, 0.015 % of 1H is 2H, while for 3H (tritium) there are two neutrons with one proton.

some possible H fussion examples:

fusion processes in our sun:
1H + 1H --> 2H + positron + neutrino
1H + 2H --> 3He + foton
3He + 3He --> 4He + 1H + 1H

fusion research mainly focuses on:
2H + 2H --> 3He (0,82 MeV) + n (2,45 MeV)
2H + 2H --> 3H (1,01 MeV) + 1H (3,02 MeV)
2H + 3H --> 4He (3,5 MeV) + n (14,1 MeV)

for a boat or ship you dont need a network, you would be able to produce as much as needed by hanging a hose overboard as can be made up from article below i found on some science site. spltting water is the big trick, fusion for later :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If both hydrogen and oxygen are flammable, then why doesn't water burn?
Hydrogen and oxygen will burn to form water if in an appropriate mixture. Pure hydrogen by itself and pure oxygen by itself will not burn (hydrogen needs an oxidizer and oxygen needs a reductant). Water (H2O) is a stable chemical compound that does not have the characteristics of the elements that make up its composition (hydrogen and oxygen). This is true of most chemical compounds. Hydrogen has the highest energy content per unit weight of any known fuel-52,000 Btu/lb (120.7 kJ/g). It burns cleanly. When hydrogen is burned with oxygen, the only byproducts are heat and water. When burned with air, which is about 68% nitrogen, some oxides of nitrogen are formed. The ultimate source of hydrogen is water. when producing hydrogen, we would also produce oxygen, which would both be consumed in the same ratio as produced. So there would be no depletion of oxygen from the atmosphere. Electrolysis does not require significant amounts of water. The hydrogen extracted from a gallon of water using a hydrogen generator could drive a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle as far as gasoline vehicles travel today on a gallon of gasoline. The energy required to produce hydrogen via electrolysis (assuming 1.23 V) is about 32.9 kW-hr/kg. For 1 mole (2 g) of hydrogen the energy is about 0.0660 kW-hr/mole. Problem so far is that producing burning water is more expensive than gasoline. Because a Watt is Voltage x Current, this is equivalent to Power x Rate x Time. The power in this case is the voltage required to split water into hydrogen and oxygen (1.23 V at 25°C). The rate is the current flow and relates directly to how fast hydrogen is produced. Time, of course, is how long the reaction runs. It turns out that voltage and current flow are interrelated. To run the water splitting reaction at a higher rate (generating more hydrogen in a given time), more voltage must be applied similar to pushing down on the accelerator of a car; more gas is used to make the car go faster. Lowering the voltage for electrolysis, which will increase the energy efficiency of the process, is an important area for research. Is burning hydrogen like the hydrogen bomb? No. Burning hydrogen, just like burning gasoline, natural gas, or a candle, is a chemical reaction, which means that only the electrons get shifted around and new compounds are made, like water, but the basic atoms are the same. In a nuclear reaction, hydrogen nuclei collide and fuse into helium nuclei, releasing tremendous amounts of energy. Because hydrogen nuclei are positively charged, they repel one another. To get hydrogen nuclei close enough together to fuse, the hydrogen nuclei must be heated to fantastic temperatures (typically hundreds of millions of degrees). This heating is done with a fission bomb-a uranium or plutonium bomb. When the fission bomb explodes, its heat is enough to trigger the hydrogen bomb.

Al Belli
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Oxygen

Post by Al Belli » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:22 pm

Oxygen is not flammable, it enhances the oxidation of any flammable material that it contacts. I have seen Hollywood produce films in which the " expert " holds a match up to a tank( supposedly containing oxygen ) valve, and opens the valve to produce a billowing flame. Obviously the tank contained something else, probably propane, but it sure impressed the bystanders.

Al Belli

Mark
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Pink Floyd

Post by Mark » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:58 pm

That was interesting you having to sign that your hydrogen wouldn't be used for drugs. Today I was reading about Xenon. I didn't think it would do much being in the inert gas column with helium and argon. I did know that someone, in Canada I think, experimented with it and oxygen getting the two to combine perhaps in the 70's, or was it fluorine, anyway it was xenon tetrafluoride or something formed under great pressure. Yet it was unstable, exploding and putting the guy in the hospital for 6 months if my memory serves me.
So anyway this inert gas xenon is also an anesthetic gas, just like nitrous oxide and those other fluorocarbons. It is expensive though, found in very small amounts in air, so they were coming up with ways to save it after the person inhaled it. Who would have thought an inert gas would be a pain killing gas, it's advantages were that it was not harmful to the cells like some of the other substances. Funny it is "inert" yet not inert.
I wonder what hydrogen abusers are using hydrogen for? Could it be they are making ammonia or something like that. Nitrogen is often the key element in the structure of most drugs. Most drugs are made of these 4 elements--hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon.
Here is the Science News article I read at work today in the magazine we get.

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040703/bob8.asp

Mark

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Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun

Post by Mike Kirney » Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:45 am

Mark wrote:That was interesting you having to sign that your hydrogen wouldn't be used for drugs. Most drugs are made of these 4 elements--hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon.
Mark
As far as I know, there are no commonly available psycho-active substances that contain any other elements than the ones listed above. All conciousness-altering drugs must be metabolized to be effective so any atom not easily digested by the human body has no place in your stash. The "grooviness" of any trip seems to be related to the size and complexity of the molecule ingested. Compare ethanol: straight chain, 9 atoms in total, the most exotic bit is the hydroxy group (very lame) - with ecstacy (MDMA): a utilitarian six-carbon ring with a longish amine tail and a methyl group hanging off it, maybe 30 atoms in total - and LSD: perhaps 60 or 70 atoms involved, four different rings (a four-ring circus!), TWO ethyl groups, a methyl group an amide group and a few other bits and pieces. That's an incredible amount of hardware to assemble into one single molecule. Now compare the buzzes. Booze provides you with a brutal and primitive numbness that allows you to find the most idiotic diversions highly amusing. Ecstacy turns you into a hyperkinetic, absent-minded, obnoxiously touchy-feely little teddy bear. LSD is, predictably, the Dusenberg of buzzes. You don't need or want anything when you are on acid. Food, water, physical comfort and social acceptance become entirely irrelevant. All sensory stimulation comes directly from your mind, which has somehow escaped your will. For twelve hours 'reality' ceases to exist and you become a pawn of the mysterious power of your own mind, which teases you with endlessly changing indescribable sensations. The most seminal work on tinkering with your own brain is PIHKAL:

http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/pihkaltour/

Given that hydrogen is the simplest substance known to man, I would guess that it is a really lame high.
Trig IS fun.

Mark
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Post by Mark » Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:11 am

Not too long ago a read a funny account in the New York Times Magazine. There were these two British scientists working with M99 or some sort of endorphin like compound, with qualities unknown at the time. One of the guys re-used a glass stirring rod to stir their tea, you know how the English like tea. This was bad form. Anyway, the tincture tiny amount on this glass stirring rod, way less than a milligram was strong enough that they were both found on the floor in a coma. Today I think they make a patch out of these substances and also narcotic lollipops for people with severe pain. One time I remember a women I was helping in our computer room, she had two patches on her legs, she said they really worked.
M99 is used to knock out elephants. This designer drug is way more potent than morphine in killing pain, perhaps it was fentanyl I was reading about or etorphine, 1000 times stronger than morphine. Funny to think the structural shape of a molecule can cause you to think or feel a certain way, happy or sad or any emotion. But then the shape of a molecule also causes us to taste foods or smell them, a shape/smell if you will. Or maybe it is a shape/electric feeling. All things we sense are electrical I suppose, all the signals we process, the recognition.
Mark

Tom
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Post by Tom » Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:10 pm

I remember a really in depth discussion on your last post mark, or rather the subject of it, on the roguesci forums. I will post it when i get a chance, their server is too busy at the moment to handle my logon.

Tom
Experience speaks more then hypothesizing ever can. More-so in chemistry.

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Post by jmhdx » Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:48 pm

Superb wanderings, it's evident that great minds frequent this forum but, guys, be carefull not to post instructions for the manufacture of mind altering substances. I personally don't have the metabolism or emotional solidity to experiment with such things and limit myself to the things that mother nature supplies. Which brings me to congratulate Yipster for beating Larry to the longest ever post, although removing the spaces would put him back on top.
It's been a long time since I've been to Amsterdam but I do fancy a trip right now.
With, I hope, the correct balance of re/irresponsibility,
Mike.

yipster
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Post by yipster » Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:39 pm

so theres to much air in my text eh? it was quoted and wasnt even my own! my own text i must correct tho. oxigen was not 3.80 but 2.80 the liter, stil to much, but is 2/3 the price of H. also i missed elsewhere a decimal dot (or is it comma) in the amount of heavy in normal water.

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