(Honeywell) Missile Rate Gyroscope

Off topic posts are welcome in this forum!
No smear campaign, or you will be banned!

Moderator: Mike Everman

Post Reply
55dcyinely
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:15 am
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Ely Nevada (No Mans Land)

(Honeywell) Missile Rate Gyroscope

Post by 55dcyinely » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:03 pm

These neat little Gyros were worth about $5000.00 dollars a piece to make, and used in air craft a well as missile guidance systems during the cold war eara.

Here's a Quote from some of the information I've found.

What a cool bit of autopilot nostalgia!
Mechanical gyroscope; may have been developed for a missile drones. "They are precision rate gyroscope used in guidance systems for military missiles. Might Possibly? Be for the Maverick Missile program. And were made in the 1980, 81 cold war-era. They were made by Honeywell.
Its measurements are 2 1/4" inch long by 15/16"inch across sensitive axis. The body is gold plated the gyroscope has 5 (or) 6 color coded flexible wire leads. Only two or three of the leads are used to spin the gyroscope motor up. We were told that the phase angle output changes as the gyroscope is tilted. This gyroscope was known as the Golden Gnat and we were told it was used in autopilots, missile guidance and robotics.
G17270B.jpg
copy of electronics-goldmine photo
G17270B.jpg (41.24 KiB) Viewed 6015 times
Heres the a copy of the Circuit.
gyro circuit.jpg
copy of electronics-goldmine circuit
Has anyone had experience with these little devils? I'm not an electrical engineer, but if I have a working schematic my luck is pretty good.
My interest is just to get it to spin up. I even built a 555 timer circuit to imitate the LVDT driver. Did I say that right? NO LUCK!
There's not a lot of information about these Gyroscopes even thought they were released as military surplus in the mid 1990's.
My guest is they don't want anyone to built a backyard Curse Missile, if the information isn't out there guys like me wont get any smart ideas. Not that anyone would really do that!
(first one who does, wins)
Here's a link to Electronics Goldmine where I bought the Gyro
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/p ... ber=G17270
And here a link of a tear-down of one
http://www.imaginaryindustries.com/Gall ... temId=1272

PyroJoe
Posts: 1743
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:44 pm
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Texas

Re: (Honeywell) Missile Rate Gyroscope

Post by PyroJoe » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:53 pm

These fellas win!
Just looking at it, their entire guidance system probably weighs close to what the gyroscope weighs(minus the batteries).

http://hackaday.com/2010/08/03/diy-guid ... el-rocket/

http://sites.google.com/site/airwavershr/guided-rocket

Have you looked at DIY drones?
http://diydrones.com/

Enjoyed the tear down of the gyro,
Thanks, Joe

55dcyinely
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:15 am
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Ely Nevada (No Mans Land)

Re: (Honeywell) Missile Rate Gyroscope

Post by 55dcyinely » Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:44 am

PyroJoe wrote:These fellas win!
Just looking at it, their entire guidance system probably weighs close to what the gyroscope weighs(minus the batteries).

http://hackaday.com/2010/08/03/diy-guid ... el-rocket/

http://sites.google.com/site/airwavershr/guided-rocket

Have you looked at DIY drones?
http://diydrones.com/

Enjoyed the tear down of the gyro,
Thanks, Joe

Joe,
That is just to cool!
Thank You :D
Doug

PyroJoe
Posts: 1743
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:44 pm
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Texas

Re: (Honeywell) Missile Rate Gyroscope

Post by PyroJoe » Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:48 pm

Your Welcome,
Bruce S. has also started a site that reviews RC components. Don't recall seeing gyros, but may have skipped over. It's a valuable review of off the shelf items along with a forum of folks who put the hardware in the air and giving it a good shake. :wink:

http://www.rcmodelreviews.com/

http://www.rcmodelreviews.com/forum/

55dcyinely
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:15 am
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Ely Nevada (No Mans Land)

Re: (Honeywell) Missile Rate Gyroscope

Post by 55dcyinely » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:09 pm

Viv,
Thank you for the information. Even with a new Oscilloscope probe I'am unable to spin it up!
I'm smart enough to know, that what I really know is not enough!
Thank You again

Viv
Posts: 2158
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:35 pm
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Normandy, France, Wales, Europe
Contact:

Re: (Honeywell) Missile Rate Gyroscope

Post by Viv » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:28 pm

Too funny but don't worry, its like a detective story ok, you have to do some tinkering to try and work out how they built that thing and what they would have used to spin it up.

First question to answer is what voltage did that thing like? sounds simple but it could be up to 400v depending on what power bus they used (also 100 or 24 or 48 you get the idea)

After that we can work on what sort of signal will tickle its magnetic fields in the right way (by working out what sort of windings it has)

Viv
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

Viv's blog

Monsieur le commentaire

Viv
Posts: 2158
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:35 pm
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Normandy, France, Wales, Europe
Contact:

Re: (Honeywell) Missile Rate Gyroscope

Post by Viv » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Moving on briskly ;-) it looks like a simple AC motor if this thread is the same type as yours (could also be a Syncro type)

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthre ... 552&page=4

http://www.google.com/search?q=gyro+mot ... =firefox-a

Viv
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

Viv's blog

Monsieur le commentaire

55dcyinely
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:15 am
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Ely Nevada (No Mans Land)

Re: (Honeywell) Missile Rate Gyroscope

Post by 55dcyinely » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:33 am

Viv,
Thats the one! From the circuit they sent, it is the same above in this post I get the 350 HZ signal, of course that's the limit of my Oscilloscope.
And one of the threads suggests AC voltage. tried that! So, going back to the seller I noticed an up date on the instructions given. I.E.
Quote
These are precision rate gyros that were made for use in guidance systems of military missiles. The last time we had these we were told that they were from the Maverick Missile Program, however, we don't know for sure. They were made in 1981, they are new and were made by Honeywell. The part# is 3051235-1 and the model number is GG440A18. They are 2 1/4" x 15/16" Dia. The body is gold plated and the gyroscope has 6 color coded flexible wire leads. We suppy a circuit diagram with it showing how to use a 741 Op Amp, a 2N3904 transistor, a 2N3906 transistor, and a few resistors and capacitors, to cause the internal gyro motor to spin from a 400Hz signal that the circuit produces (the circuit requires + and - 15VDC). The circuit shows which leads of the gyro to use to spin it, however we don't have any other data. We were told that the phase angle output changes as the gyro is tilted, This gyro was known as the Golden Gnat and we were told it was used in autopilots, missile guidance and robotics. Hurry these will sell quickly! Sorry no other data.
End Quote.
Someone else told me to increasing megahertz to about 700 HZ finally spun it up for him. And that was the only thing he changed on the schematic. Actual I read that.
Not sure how to go about that. Other than changing the transistors to what? To many things. Really I wouldn't do it if were all easy. My brain needs to wrap it self around something.
I resistantly told Mike, us retired guys think everyone should have time dibble dabble. I think I retired to early. But I just didn't enjoy my job. See, I just go on and on.
Last edited by 55dcyinely on Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Al Belli
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 10:36 pm
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: Pennsylvania - USA

Re: (Honeywell) Missile Rate Gyroscope

Post by Al Belli » Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:38 pm

Hi,

I think You mean Hz. NOT Mhz.

Al Belli

55dcyinely
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:15 am
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Ely Nevada (No Mans Land)

Re: (Honeywell) Missile Rate Gyroscope

Post by 55dcyinely » Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:06 pm

Al Belli wrote:Hi,

I think You mean Hz. NOT Mhz.

Al Belli
Yes you are right! Hz! Again sorry about the typo's.
Maybe now that's corrected, I can get it to spin up!

Viv
Posts: 2158
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:35 pm
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Normandy, France, Wales, Europe
Contact:

Re: (Honeywell) Missile Rate Gyroscope

Post by Viv » Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:22 pm

Hi MAte

Ali is right (as usual) it is Hz as its a 400 hz power bus as that was a standard aircraft power system (allows smaller more efficient inductors and transformers to be used)

Looking at your circuit did it specify what type of capacitor to fit across the motor terminals? and for that matter did it specify for the rest of the circuit? the OP amp is a pretty standard 741 type and forms the oscillator (400 Hertz Sq wave) and if you went to collage any were in the world since the 70s you would have trained on it, the two transistors form the power output stage and are a complimentary pair, they have to go in the right way around! the power rails are configured as one positive to ground and one negative to ground, this gives you 30 volts peek to peek across the rails (positive to negative) but only 15 volts positive or negative measured form the rail to ground! watch that in your wiring its very easy to get a ground mixed up and end up with half of what you want (= damn!) or twice as much (= smoke;-)

The capacitor across the motor terminals is the tricky one to watch as it phase shifts the 400 hz signal between the two coils (windings) this gives you the correct (or incorrect) phase difference in the two magnetic fields.

But also the coils (windings) have a start and stop (beginning and end) if you wire them backwards this can stop the motor turning (or turn the wrong way)

If your op amp is oscillating nicely and you have a good signal output from the power transistors, maybe you just need to swap your coil terminals around to to reverse fields?

Does your circuit draw some power? how much? does it go up if you connect or disconnect the motor terminals? have you buzzed the terminals with a Ohm meter?

Hope that helps, I was not sure how much electronics you have done so I kept it simple so every one can follow, no offense if like me you have all your certificates ;-)

Viv
"Sometimes the lies you tell are less frightening than the loneliness you might feel if you stopped telling them" Brock Clarke

Viv's blog

Monsieur le commentaire

55dcyinely
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:15 am
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Ely Nevada (No Mans Land)

Re: (Honeywell) Missile Rate Gyroscope

Post by 55dcyinely » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:17 pm

Viv,
Thanks again!

OK, good information. Whit that in mind, on ward I go. No formal Electronic training just hobby stuff.
It's only using 0.01 measurements of current. Doesn't seem to matter AC or DC Voltage. I'm using DC voltage because of that phase shift thingamajig.
You know that Spock and Kirk talk about. I have to keep it lite, or I will fall off the edge.

When traveling down life's road only to find it's been washed out just in front of me, I stop only long enough to find a way around.
When I was younger, I would have jumped into the water, Only to be carried further away from my objective.
In this particular situation waiting until the water resides just sounded better.

Jutte
Posts: 332
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:01 am
Antipspambot question: 0
Location: NZ

Re: (Honeywell) Missile Rate Gyroscope

Post by Jutte » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:17 am

Hi 55dcyinely,
Have you tried this site?

http://edgetriggered.wordpress.com/cate ... rate-gyro/)

55dcyinely
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:15 am
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Ely Nevada (No Mans Land)

Re: (Honeywell) Missile Rate Gyroscope

Post by 55dcyinely » Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:48 pm

Jutte wrote:Hi 55dcyinely,
Have you tried this site?

http://edgetriggered.wordpress.com/cate ... rate-gyro/)
Hi Jutte,
Yes, I'm waiting for components so I can build the circuit from the first schematic in his blog.
Thank you. Theirs just not a lot of information about these little things. Cool looking tho.

55dcyinely
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:15 am
Antipspambot question: 125
Location: Ely Nevada (No Mans Land)

Re: (Honeywell) Missile Rate Gyroscope

Post by 55dcyinely » Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:11 am

Hey guys,
Someone finally got one of my Missile Gyroscope up and spinning!
Check it out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EKWP_gzUFU
From: talberts850 | Oct. 25th 2010
This is a US Dynamics model GC440A18 Rate Gryoscope I bought on eBay from dcyinely. Called the Golden Gnat, they were apparently used in a lot of cold war era missiles and other military guidance equipment. The motor is a 2 phase induction motor that can be spun up using the circuit shown. The excitiation provided by the circuit is two 400Hz square waves in quadtrature. I think it is an 8 pole motor so if that is right the spin rate at 400Hz is 6000RPM. I used an 18kHz 10 volt excitation to drive the output as suggested by http://www.etotheipiplusone.net/?p=428. The stationary signal on the scope is the output excitation. The output signal changes amplitude when the gyro is rotated about its sensitive axis.
Thanks again
Doug

Post Reply