heat output of valveless, heat usage other than thrust

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hhopaul
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heat output of valveless, heat usage other than thrust

Post by hhopaul » Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:39 am

hello was wondering about using a valveless pulse jet to create enough heat for thermolysis (splitting steam to hydrogen and oxygen using high heat around 2300 f.) i would like some heat ratings from exuast and from the outer temp. of the cc. if anyone has this info it would be greatly appreciated. thanks

Mark
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Re: heat output of valveless, heat usage other than thrust

Post by Mark » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:42 pm

Some tidbits on dissociation. These two sources speak of temperatures of over 4000 F.

"The target is immersed in water, and when heated to 2500-3000 C causes the water molecules which touch it to dissociate."
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1986CRASM.302.1219O

"Dissociation of water and separation of hydrogen at 1 to 2 % overall efficiency (solar to hydrogen.)"
http://www.hionsolar.com/n-hion96.htm

Here's a tricky way to get the hydrogen by an indirect route. Just add water. ha
"Dehydration of hydrated crystalline zeolites containing trivalent metal cations results in the concurrent reduction of the trivalent cation to the bivalent state and the evolution of oxygen. Rehydration of the zeolite produces free hydrogen and oxidizes the bivalent metal cations to their initial trivalent state. A cyclic operation of the two procedures is advantageously employed."
If you scroll down the page there's more information.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3963830.html

http://patents.ic.gc.ca/cipo/cpd/en/pat ... mmary.html

http://www.newenergy.org.cn/english/sol ... drogen.htm

"Near 2600 K, 10% of water molecules are thermally dissociated at atmospheric pressure, with a reaction time constant below 1 ms. Such temperatures can be reached with focused sunlight. To use this endothermic reaction for the production of hydrogen, the hydrogen must be separated from the oxygen at high temperature, because they would quickly recombine to form water again, if the unseparated mixture were simply returned to lower temperatures. We have considered thermoacoustic mixture separation for this purpose. Our calculations show that the thermal-diffusion ratios are high enough to yield steadily flowing streams of hydrogen-enriched steam and oxygen-enriched steam in a separation channel less than a wavelength long. However, the thermoacoustic power density in 1-bar steam is low, so the required apparatus would be large, needing alot of expensive and fragile high-temperature material, such as calcia-stabilized zirconia. Our estimates show that this approach to solar hydrogen production would be approximately 30 times more expensive than solar-Stirling electricity generation driving traditional water electrolysis."
[Work supported by DOE Office of Science.]
http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet ... s&gifs=yes
http://www.onlineconversion.com/temperature.htm
http://www.muggyweld.com/melting.html
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Chadly33
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Re: heat output of valveless, heat usage other than thrust

Post by Chadly33 » Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:32 pm

maybe a sealed casing around the CC with some nozzles facing the same way as the exhaust, and the inlet with a one way valve. Pump the water in and steam is forced out the back at high pressure sort of a steam rocket assisted pulse jet! Not a use other than thrust but something to consider anyway. :?
Bribie Islands resident mad scientist!http://www.geocities.com/ozpulse@y7mail ... 5835711956

hhopaul
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Re: heat output of valveless, heat usage other than thrust

Post by hhopaul » Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:55 am

i was thinking along the lines of a water jacket around the cc to create stream and then that steam being routed/devided through multiple small tubes that run straight through the center or along the inner surface of the pulse jet. right in the hottest area in hopes of that steam to become hot enough to split into hydrogen and oxygen. creating a self fueling pulse jet that runs on water but needs an alternate fuel source for start up. nice little idea but i dont know if it would work??? any thoughts?

Mark
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Re: heat output of valveless, heat usage other than thrust

Post by Mark » Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:40 am

If such a thing worked, we wouldn't need oil or nuclear reactors. ha
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hhopaul
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Re: heat output of valveless, heat usage other than thrust

Post by hhopaul » Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:35 am

yes that is my goal.... i did some more research into the links posted above, but needed google school to understand it. but i came up with that thermolysis happens at above 2000k=1726.85C but stainless melts at around 1400C. so that wouldnt work. the difference between C,F,and K temps had me a little to hopeful. but not all is lost, pure tungsten melts at a little above 3000C and i was able to find pipes. they could be welded using a hydrogen torch. and as far as that goes what kind of heat out put does a pulse jet running on hydrogen have???? more than what a stainless constructed pulse jet can handle would be my guess. i will seach this great website to see if i can find that answer.

hhopaul
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Re: heat output of valveless, heat usage other than thrust

Post by hhopaul » Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:54 am

well i seen my last post and realized i answered my own question . if i were to weld the tungsten with a hydrogen torch then i would assume a hydrogen pulse jet could not be made out of tungsten and run for very long without melting.... i feel like forest gump trying to figure out rocket science, but i am obssesed and determined. now what if the pulse jet was made ceramic?? some ceramics are good for over 3300C, but would vibration or frequency crack it? i watched a video of a hho torch on ceramic and it got red hot and they said it IR at over 3000C but it didnt melt or crack in the video. that might be promissing. :?:

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Re: heat output of valveless, heat usage other than thrust

Post by Viv » Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:18 pm

Back to basics is a good place to start,

what's the total energy input required per unit volume of hydrogen produced (forget how its done, just how much energy is needed to break the bonds).

What is the energy released from burning the hydrogen per unit volume (how much energy can you get back to do some useful work with i.e. make more hydrogen)

I would suggest here is a good place to start with your research as you could end up going a long way down a particular road when some easy maths could help you a lot, I think you will also find this as a worked example in some thermodynamic texts that are on the web, I am sure I have seen it before (some were)

Viv
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