ROBERT SAPOLSKY
"These are the believers who argue that it would be a disaster, would be the very work of Beelzebub, for it to be proven that god exists. What good would religiosity be if it came with a transparently clear contract, instead of requiring the leap of faith into an unknowable void?"
"So I'm taken with religious folks who argue that you not only can, but should believe without requiring proof. Mine is to not believe without requiring proof. Mind you, it would be perfectly fine with me if there were a proof that there is no god. Some might view this as a potential public health problem, given the number of people who would then run damagingly amok. But it's obvious that there's no shortage of folks running amok thanks to their belief. So that wouldn 't be a problem and, all things considered, such a proof would be a relief—many physicists, especially astrophysicists, seem weirdly willing to go on about their communing with god about the Big Bang, but in my world of biologists, the god concept gets mighty infuriating when you spend your time thinking about, say, untreatably aggressive childhood leukemia."
http://www.edge.org/q2005/q05_9.html
Satire/irony
Moderator: Mike Everman
Re: Satire/irony
SUSAN BLACKMORE
Psychologist, Visiting Lecturer, University of the West of England, Bristol; Author The Meme Machine
It is possible to live happily and morally without believing in free will. As Samuel Johnson said "All theory is against the freedom of the will; all experience is for it." With recent developments in neuroscience and theories of consciousness, theory is even more against it than it was in his time, more than 200 years ago. So I long ago set about systematically changing the experience. I now have no feeling of acting with free will, although the feeling took many years to ebb away.
But what happens? People say I'm lying! They say it's impossible and so I must be deluding myself to preserve my theory. And what can I do or say to challenge them? I have no idea—other than to suggest that other people try the exercise, demanding as it is.
When the feeling is gone, decisions just happen with no sense of anyone making them, but then a new question arises—will the decisions be morally acceptable? Here I have made a great leap of faith (or the memes and genes and world have done so). It seems that when people throw out the illusion of an inner self who acts, as many mystics and Buddhist practitioners have done, they generally do behave in ways that we think of as moral or good. So perhaps giving up free will is not as dangerous as it sounds—but this too I cannot prove.
As for giving up the sense of an inner conscious self altogether—this is very much harder. I just keep on seeming to exist. But though I cannot prove it—I think it is true that I don't.
(Scroll down the page to the woman with the multi-colored hair. That in itself is proof we have no free will). ha
PS She/Susan Blackmore seems like a kind, thoughtful person, even if she doesn't exit. Oh!
http://www.edge.org/q2005/q05_8.html
Psychologist, Visiting Lecturer, University of the West of England, Bristol; Author The Meme Machine
It is possible to live happily and morally without believing in free will. As Samuel Johnson said "All theory is against the freedom of the will; all experience is for it." With recent developments in neuroscience and theories of consciousness, theory is even more against it than it was in his time, more than 200 years ago. So I long ago set about systematically changing the experience. I now have no feeling of acting with free will, although the feeling took many years to ebb away.
But what happens? People say I'm lying! They say it's impossible and so I must be deluding myself to preserve my theory. And what can I do or say to challenge them? I have no idea—other than to suggest that other people try the exercise, demanding as it is.
When the feeling is gone, decisions just happen with no sense of anyone making them, but then a new question arises—will the decisions be morally acceptable? Here I have made a great leap of faith (or the memes and genes and world have done so). It seems that when people throw out the illusion of an inner self who acts, as many mystics and Buddhist practitioners have done, they generally do behave in ways that we think of as moral or good. So perhaps giving up free will is not as dangerous as it sounds—but this too I cannot prove.
As for giving up the sense of an inner conscious self altogether—this is very much harder. I just keep on seeming to exist. But though I cannot prove it—I think it is true that I don't.
(Scroll down the page to the woman with the multi-colored hair. That in itself is proof we have no free will). ha
PS She/Susan Blackmore seems like a kind, thoughtful person, even if she doesn't exit. Oh!
http://www.edge.org/q2005/q05_8.html
Last edited by Mark on Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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larry cottrill
- Posts: 4140
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Re: Satire/irony
As usual, you have hit the nail on the head exactly. The logical glitch of deciding to have no free will and then pushing yourself through the necessary mental exertion to achieve this idyllic state is more than a little amusing.Mark wrote:(Scroll down the page to the woman with the multi-colored hair. That in itself is proof we have no free will). ha
http://www.edge.org/q2005/q05_8.html
L Cottrill
Re: Satire/irony
For starters. (Wiki tidbits)
In Buddhism it is taught that the idea of absolute freedom of choice (i.e. that any human being could be completely free to make any choice) is foolish, because it denies the reality of one's physical needs and circumstances. Equally incorrect is the idea that we have no choice in life or that our lives are pre-determined."
Neurology and psychiatry
"There are several brain-related conditions in which an individual's actions are not felt to be entirely under his or her control. Although the existence of such conditions does not directly refute the existence of free will, the study of such conditions, like the neuroscientific studies above, is valuable in developing models of how the brain may construct our experience of free will.
For example, people with Tourette syndrome and related tic disorders make involuntary movements and utterances, called tics, despite the fact that they would prefer not to do so when it is socially inappropriate. Tics are described as semi-voluntary or "unvoluntary",[75] because they are not strictly involuntary: they may be experienced as a voluntary response to an unwanted, premonitory urge. Tics are experienced as irresistible and must eventually be expressed.[75] People with Tourette syndrome are sometimes able to suppress their tics to some extent for limited periods, but doing so often results in an explosion of tics afterward. The control which can be exerted (from seconds to hours at a time) may merely postpone and exacerbate the ultimate expression of the tic.[76]
In alien hand syndrome, the afflicted individual's limb will produce meaningful behaviours without the intention of the subject. The clinical definition requires "feeling that one limb is foreign or has a will of its own, together with observable involuntary motor activity" (emphasis in original).[77] This syndrome is often a result of damage to the corpus callosum, either when it is severed to treat intractable epilepsy or due to a stroke. The standard neurological explanation is that the felt will reported by the speaking left hemisphere does not correspond with the actions performed by the non-speaking right hemisphere, thus suggesting that the two hemispheres may have independent senses of will.[78][79]
Similarly, one of the most important ("first rank") diagnostic symptoms of schizophrenia is the delusion of being controlled by an external force.[80] People with schizophrenia will sometimes report that, although they are acting in the world, they did not initiate, or will, the particular actions they performed. This is sometimes likened to being a robot controlled by someone else. Although the neural mechanisms of schizophrenia are not yet clear, one influential hypothesis is that there is a breakdown in brain systems that compare motor commands with the feedback received from the body (known as proprioception), leading to attendant hallucinations and delusions of control.[81]
Also, obsessive-compulsive disorder and other compulsive behaviour, such as compulsive overeating and addiction, may be linked to a lack of free will. And only hints, or degrees, of this may be linked to a lack of totally free will.
Determinism and emergent behaviour
Main article: Emergence
In generative philosophy of cognitive sciences and evolutionary psychology, free will is assumed not to exist.[82][83] However, an illusion of free will is created, within this theoretical context, due to the generation of infinite or computationally complex behaviour from the interaction of a finite set of rules and parameters. Thus, the unpredictability of the emerging behaviour from deterministic processes leads to a perception of free will, even though free will as an ontological entity is assumed not to exist.[82][83] In this picture, even if the behavior could be computed ahead of time, no way of doing so will be simpler than just observing the outcome of the brain's own computations.[84]
Genetics
Like physicists, biologists have frequently addressed questions related to free will. One of the most heated debates in biology is that of "nature versus nurture", concerning the relative importance of genetics and biology as compared to culture and environment in human behavior.[58] The view of most researchers is that many human behaviors can be explained in terms of humans' brains, genes, and evolutionary histories.[59][60][61] This point of view raises the fear that such attribution makes it impossible to hold others responsible for their actions. Steven Pinker's view is that fear of determinism in the context of "genetics" and "evolution" is a mistake, that it is "a confusion of explanation with exculpation". Responsibility doesn't require behavior to be uncaused, as long as behaviour responds to praise and blame.[62] Moreover, it is not certain that environmental determination is any less threatening to free will than genetic determination.[63]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will
In Buddhism it is taught that the idea of absolute freedom of choice (i.e. that any human being could be completely free to make any choice) is foolish, because it denies the reality of one's physical needs and circumstances. Equally incorrect is the idea that we have no choice in life or that our lives are pre-determined."
Neurology and psychiatry
"There are several brain-related conditions in which an individual's actions are not felt to be entirely under his or her control. Although the existence of such conditions does not directly refute the existence of free will, the study of such conditions, like the neuroscientific studies above, is valuable in developing models of how the brain may construct our experience of free will.
For example, people with Tourette syndrome and related tic disorders make involuntary movements and utterances, called tics, despite the fact that they would prefer not to do so when it is socially inappropriate. Tics are described as semi-voluntary or "unvoluntary",[75] because they are not strictly involuntary: they may be experienced as a voluntary response to an unwanted, premonitory urge. Tics are experienced as irresistible and must eventually be expressed.[75] People with Tourette syndrome are sometimes able to suppress their tics to some extent for limited periods, but doing so often results in an explosion of tics afterward. The control which can be exerted (from seconds to hours at a time) may merely postpone and exacerbate the ultimate expression of the tic.[76]
In alien hand syndrome, the afflicted individual's limb will produce meaningful behaviours without the intention of the subject. The clinical definition requires "feeling that one limb is foreign or has a will of its own, together with observable involuntary motor activity" (emphasis in original).[77] This syndrome is often a result of damage to the corpus callosum, either when it is severed to treat intractable epilepsy or due to a stroke. The standard neurological explanation is that the felt will reported by the speaking left hemisphere does not correspond with the actions performed by the non-speaking right hemisphere, thus suggesting that the two hemispheres may have independent senses of will.[78][79]
Similarly, one of the most important ("first rank") diagnostic symptoms of schizophrenia is the delusion of being controlled by an external force.[80] People with schizophrenia will sometimes report that, although they are acting in the world, they did not initiate, or will, the particular actions they performed. This is sometimes likened to being a robot controlled by someone else. Although the neural mechanisms of schizophrenia are not yet clear, one influential hypothesis is that there is a breakdown in brain systems that compare motor commands with the feedback received from the body (known as proprioception), leading to attendant hallucinations and delusions of control.[81]
Also, obsessive-compulsive disorder and other compulsive behaviour, such as compulsive overeating and addiction, may be linked to a lack of free will. And only hints, or degrees, of this may be linked to a lack of totally free will.
Determinism and emergent behaviour
Main article: Emergence
In generative philosophy of cognitive sciences and evolutionary psychology, free will is assumed not to exist.[82][83] However, an illusion of free will is created, within this theoretical context, due to the generation of infinite or computationally complex behaviour from the interaction of a finite set of rules and parameters. Thus, the unpredictability of the emerging behaviour from deterministic processes leads to a perception of free will, even though free will as an ontological entity is assumed not to exist.[82][83] In this picture, even if the behavior could be computed ahead of time, no way of doing so will be simpler than just observing the outcome of the brain's own computations.[84]
Genetics
Like physicists, biologists have frequently addressed questions related to free will. One of the most heated debates in biology is that of "nature versus nurture", concerning the relative importance of genetics and biology as compared to culture and environment in human behavior.[58] The view of most researchers is that many human behaviors can be explained in terms of humans' brains, genes, and evolutionary histories.[59][60][61] This point of view raises the fear that such attribution makes it impossible to hold others responsible for their actions. Steven Pinker's view is that fear of determinism in the context of "genetics" and "evolution" is a mistake, that it is "a confusion of explanation with exculpation". Responsibility doesn't require behavior to be uncaused, as long as behaviour responds to praise and blame.[62] Moreover, it is not certain that environmental determination is any less threatening to free will than genetic determination.[63]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will
Presentation is Everything
Re: Satire/irony
The logical glitch of deciding to have no free will and then pushing yourself through the necessary mental exertion to achieve this idyllic state is more than a little amusing.
L Cottrill
No idyllic state in this instance ...
"the ... concept gets mighty infuriating when you spend your time thinking about, say, untreatably aggressive childhood leukemia."
ROBERT SAPOLSKY
"These are the believers who argue that it would be a disaster, would be the very work of Beelzebub, for it to be proven that god exists. What good would religiosity be if it came with a transparently clear contract, instead of requiring the leap of faith into an unknowable void?"
"So I'm taken with religious folks who argue that you not only can, but should believe without requiring proof. Mine is to not believe without requiring proof. Mind you, it would be perfectly fine with me if there were a proof that there is no god. Some might view this as a potential public health problem, given the number of people who would then run damagingly amok. But it's obvious that there's no shortage of folks running amok thanks to their belief. So that wouldn 't be a problem and, all things considered, such a proof would be a relief—many physicists, especially astrophysicists, seem weirdly willing to go on about their communing with god about the Big Bang, but in my world of biologists, the god concept gets mighty infuriating when you spend your time thinking about, say, untreatably aggressive childhood leukemia."
http://www.edge.org/q2005/q05_9.html
L Cottrill
No idyllic state in this instance ...
"the ... concept gets mighty infuriating when you spend your time thinking about, say, untreatably aggressive childhood leukemia."
ROBERT SAPOLSKY
"These are the believers who argue that it would be a disaster, would be the very work of Beelzebub, for it to be proven that god exists. What good would religiosity be if it came with a transparently clear contract, instead of requiring the leap of faith into an unknowable void?"
"So I'm taken with religious folks who argue that you not only can, but should believe without requiring proof. Mine is to not believe without requiring proof. Mind you, it would be perfectly fine with me if there were a proof that there is no god. Some might view this as a potential public health problem, given the number of people who would then run damagingly amok. But it's obvious that there's no shortage of folks running amok thanks to their belief. So that wouldn 't be a problem and, all things considered, such a proof would be a relief—many physicists, especially astrophysicists, seem weirdly willing to go on about their communing with god about the Big Bang, but in my world of biologists, the god concept gets mighty infuriating when you spend your time thinking about, say, untreatably aggressive childhood leukemia."
http://www.edge.org/q2005/q05_9.html
Presentation is Everything
Re: Satire/irony
Dawkins defending himself... "Just one anecdote to show that I am not the worst in this thing." And then there is the punch line. ha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_2xGIwQ ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_2xGIwQ ... re=related
Presentation is Everything
Re: Satire/irony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fhUXKYz ... re=related
Some comments from the viewers or perspective points to ponder.
"Sounds like intelligent design to me!
"
"haha, the cockroach doesn't have a soul. haha "
"haha, neither do you! "
"What was "God" thinking when he created Tyrannosaurus Rex? "
"The cockroach was being converted."
"Yes! It is undeniable! God truly is an AWESOME god! Who else would create something so wondrously beautiful?"
"I guess the standard creationist answer is that all this is because someone somewhere 6000 years ago ate a fruit."
"wow! what an elaborate way to torture your creations God!"
"What sort of "God" created the homeo sapien. He tenderly raises animals in the fields, feeds them, pays vets bills when they are ill. Then he kills them, chops them up and cooks them in an oven, he then slices the carcass joint in a ritual ceremony in front of not only they family but the little innocent children as well and then puts it on a plate with vegetables, sprinkles salt and gravy all over and gorges himself senseless."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fO0zHiAIG8&NR=1
"Somebody injected a paralyzing drug into my brain: I can't stop watching weird stuff like this on YouTube!"
"Thank goodness! We have to save as many cockroaches as we can before they go extinct."
"Yeah, what's with the criticism? This is fascinating stuff to me.
We can never know too much about the world we live in. Obviously there are more than a few people who have given up the whole learning thing, and have probably plateaued somewhere near mediocrity."
As an aside.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 65825.html
Some comments from the viewers or perspective points to ponder.
"Sounds like intelligent design to me!
""haha, the cockroach doesn't have a soul. haha "
"haha, neither do you!
""What was "God" thinking when he created Tyrannosaurus Rex? "
"The cockroach was being converted."
"Yes! It is undeniable! God truly is an AWESOME god! Who else would create something so wondrously beautiful?"
"I guess the standard creationist answer is that all this is because someone somewhere 6000 years ago ate a fruit."
"wow! what an elaborate way to torture your creations God!"
"What sort of "God" created the homeo sapien. He tenderly raises animals in the fields, feeds them, pays vets bills when they are ill. Then he kills them, chops them up and cooks them in an oven, he then slices the carcass joint in a ritual ceremony in front of not only they family but the little innocent children as well and then puts it on a plate with vegetables, sprinkles salt and gravy all over and gorges himself senseless."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fO0zHiAIG8&NR=1
"Somebody injected a paralyzing drug into my brain: I can't stop watching weird stuff like this on YouTube!"
"Thank goodness! We have to save as many cockroaches as we can before they go extinct."
"Yeah, what's with the criticism? This is fascinating stuff to me.
We can never know too much about the world we live in. Obviously there are more than a few people who have given up the whole learning thing, and have probably plateaued somewhere near mediocrity."
As an aside.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 65825.html
Presentation is Everything
Re: Satire/irony
A sensitive kind of irony.
"When I think of the thousands of ants I have killed for no other crime than invading the sugar bowl or pantry, I won't begrudge Wittinger and colleagues for snipping a few legs. But I wouldn't want to do it myself, even for so extraordinary a discovery as the ant pedometer."
http://www.sciencemusings.com/2006/09/k ... -love.html
"When I think of the thousands of ants I have killed for no other crime than invading the sugar bowl or pantry, I won't begrudge Wittinger and colleagues for snipping a few legs. But I wouldn't want to do it myself, even for so extraordinary a discovery as the ant pedometer."
http://www.sciencemusings.com/2006/09/k ... -love.html
Presentation is Everything
Re: Satire/irony
Just a poem.
http://www.loc.gov/poetry/180/133.html
http://www.loc.gov/poetry/180/133.html
Last edited by Mark on Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Presentation is Everything
Re: Satire/irony
"Pickover enjoys discussing Klein bottles further in his book when he considers mathematical models for the entire cosmos."
"The idea of multiple universes is not as far-fetched as it may sound. According to a recent poll of leading physicists, a majority of physicists (including Stephen Hawking) believe in some form of multiple universe theory."
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/gen/page1 ... heme=light
"The idea of multiple universes is not as far-fetched as it may sound. According to a recent poll of leading physicists, a majority of physicists (including Stephen Hawking) believe in some form of multiple universe theory."
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/gen/page1 ... heme=light
Presentation is Everything
Re: Satire/irony
"Toronto scientists have found a way to turn human embryonic stem cells into a cell type that creates all the organs in the gut, including the lungs, liver and pancreas."
"The impact of this kind of technology on human civilization in the future will be very mixed. If we can replace our organs as they wear out does this not likely mean significantly longer life spans for anyone who can afford it? It raises a lot of questions about sustainability and the broader social issues. I’ve always loved science and technology since I was a child but it truly anyone’s guess where these kind of “advances” are going to lead us. These issues are going to be coming down the pipe far sooner than most people realize. Brave New World indeed…"
http://healthzone.ca/health/article/473671
How about a new brain? ha
"A second post is titled 'Mixed Blessing', and this incredibly paranoid individual has equated this exciting new finding to a Brave New World scenario. Come on people! These researchers have slaved away in their lab for years on end and have discovered something that may one day save your sorry asses. Have some respect! Nothing annoys me more than when I see someone cut a Scientist's work apart based purely on lack of education and paranoia."
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008 ... gger_3.php
"The impact of this kind of technology on human civilization in the future will be very mixed. If we can replace our organs as they wear out does this not likely mean significantly longer life spans for anyone who can afford it? It raises a lot of questions about sustainability and the broader social issues. I’ve always loved science and technology since I was a child but it truly anyone’s guess where these kind of “advances” are going to lead us. These issues are going to be coming down the pipe far sooner than most people realize. Brave New World indeed…"
http://healthzone.ca/health/article/473671
How about a new brain? ha
"A second post is titled 'Mixed Blessing', and this incredibly paranoid individual has equated this exciting new finding to a Brave New World scenario. Come on people! These researchers have slaved away in their lab for years on end and have discovered something that may one day save your sorry asses. Have some respect! Nothing annoys me more than when I see someone cut a Scientist's work apart based purely on lack of education and paranoia."
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008 ... gger_3.php
Presentation is Everything
Re: Satire/irony
I wonder if there are any Milgram pulsejet plans? ... as in "I wanted to stop. I was getting ready to walk out." ha
Caveat - some sadness, view at your own risk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzLQpRwm ... re=related
Caveat - some sadness, view at your own risk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzLQpRwm ... re=related
Presentation is Everything
-
larry cottrill
- Posts: 4140
- Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2003 1:17 am
- Antipspambot question: 0
- Location: Mingo, Iowa USA
- Contact:
Re: Satire/irony
Hypocrisy IS really funny, as long as the finger is pointed in someone else's direction. But then, it's always the "other side's" problem, anyway -- MY guys just "make mistakes" once in a while or suffer occasional "slips of the tongue". Ha.
It's the world's most easily diagnosed disease. In somebody else.
L Cottrill