A steam generator with possible over unity

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pezman
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the motor itself would be excess to requirements ...

Post by pezman » Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:19 am

tufty wrote:If it was able to produce more energy that was put in, the motor itself would be excess to requirements, except for starting.
Reminds me of the movie "Primer".

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Steam Generator

Post by hagent » Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:29 am

Here is another version of the original steam generator. It's much more simple in design.

http://www.rexresearch.com/griggs/griggs.htm

I need to build one of these... or something of a flavour of my own... :)


have a good weekend!
Hagen Tannberg

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Fence sitting fun

Post by Irvine.J » Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:50 am

I decided to delete this post, Blargg, Honk
I might post it later.
Last edited by Irvine.J on Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Steam Engine

Post by leo » Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:00 am

hagent wrote: I wonder if we can buy these for our house and how much it would cost?
here is the adres, but I believe the don't claim overunity no more.
http://www.hydrodynamics.com/index.htm
[/quote]

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Post by tufty » Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:18 am

I'm tempted to make one of these, see what it can do. Conceptually, it's very simple, certainly something a home machinist could make, at least on a small scale, relatively easily with little more than a lathe and a drill press. Even the tolerances aren't too exacting, a clearance of 0.1 inch between drum and cylinder is massive. I am certain that anyone capable of making a gas turbine should be able to do it with ease.

With regards to where the "extra" energy comes from, I'm with marksteamnz - it seems obvious that a full calorimetric test has not been carried out, and even the description of the device's operation at the link given above hints at where the energy might be coming from:
article wrote:More importantly, the excess energy does not actually appear at the output steam pipe for a constant input of energy. What happens is this; the pump is started and after five or ten minutes reaches a steady state where it is converting water at room temperature to steam.
Something happening with respect to temperature gradients, maybe?
article wrote:The SP generator heats liquids in a totally different way and creates the heat in a totally different place - inside the liquid. The heat is created where it is needed. In the SP generator, there are no heat transfer surfaces - the metal surfaces are actually cooler than the liquid.
Oh, no heat transfer, eh? I think someone has their blinkers on here, and wants to see some magical process happening. I'm willing to bet that the major action being carried out is *exactly* heat transfer. My money is on something along these lines - shearing and water hammer force the fluid to change state (rather like evaporating liquid propane, or methanol), with much, if not all, of the latent heat being taken from the machine itself (see also icing of propane tanks), with the setting up of temperature gradients in the machine explaining the "time to steady state" observation.

I'm almost certain that if one were to heat the machine during operation, its "efficiency" would go even higher.

Does it show that I get angry at over-unity claims?

Simon

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Re: Steam Engine

Post by marksteamnz » Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:32 pm

Now that's an interesting mixer and probably has good applications for fluids with low viscosities.
Nice to see they dropped the over 100% efficiency.
I wonder just how long the rotor lasts, I know they say forever I just wonder
as all the stuff I've read to says cavitation knocks 7 bells out of impellers no matter what their configuration.

Thanks for the link, as Tuffy said interesting to make one.

leo wrote:
hagent wrote: I wonder if we can buy these for our house and how much it would cost?
here is the adres, but I believe the don't claim overunity no more.
http://www.hydrodynamics.com/index.htm
[/quote]
Last edited by marksteamnz on Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Steam Engine

Post by leo » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:56 pm

marksteamnz wrote:Now that's an interesting mixer and probably has good applications for fluids with low viscosities.
Nice to see they dropped the over 100% efficiency.
In this PDF file I think there is something about the Griggs device.
http://www.earthtech.org/publications/A ... 09-871.pdf
Attachments
griggs.jpg
griggs.jpg (76.95 KiB) Viewed 6679 times

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steam engine

Post by leo » Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:11 pm

This company is claiming overunity.
See this PDF.
http://www.undaltd.com/description.pdf
1 kW = 860 Kcal/u
Attachments
overunity.jpg
overunity.jpg (59.42 KiB) Viewed 6673 times

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Steam Generator

Post by hagent » Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:11 pm

Wow this is really going to piss Mark off... :D

Mark might just have to buy one and let us know what the real energy effeciency is.

I'm just kidding Mark...

It looks like they are claiming 232%. 3 kw pump at 6,000,000 cal.

I wonder how much one of those units are. The 1A model. It would probably take a while to get your money back.

I might just have to email them and ask.

Thanks Leo for the post!

Cheers,
Hagen Tannberg

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Re: Steam Generator

Post by tufty » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:02 am

hagent wrote:It looks like they are claiming 232%. 3 kw pump at 6,000,000 cal.
Yep, that looks like 200%+ to me, too. I'm impressed by how they measure the unit's voltage in kW, that adds a level of confidence as to their technical competence.
I wonder how much one of those units are. The 1A model. It would probably take a while to get your money back.
Some crappy maths follows.

My current boiler is oil-fired, and does hot water and radiators. At its minimum setting, the burner consumes 14kg/h for an output of 16 kW.
Over a year, we consume 2500l, more or less, of fuel, so that's 2500 * 0.89 = 2225 kg of fuel. Assuming it runs at its lowest setting (it does, the boiler is somewhat overspecced), that's 159 hours over a year, or an average of 25 minutes or 0.44 hours a day.

In general, though, we can say that, on average, we have an energy consumption of about 7kW/h per day in fuel for heating.

Now, assuming their figures are right, we can get almost that from one of their 3kW units, and it would have to run for an hour or so every day on average, for a total consumption of 1095 kw/h/year

Fuel is currently around 0.7€/l, so annual cost with the current system is about 1750€ / year.

Electricity is about 0.1€/kW/h, so annual cost would be around 110€/year, at most a couple of hundred euros, assuming the unit has enough "grunt" to handle heating us when it's -20°C outside.

Assuming a 3000€ for installation (about twice the cost of a standard fuel boiler), that's payback in under 2 years without reselling the old unit.

That can't be right. I must have fscked up my maths. Please, someone correct me.

Simon

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Post by marksteamnz » Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:58 pm

http://www.undaltd.com/

Quote "Kwant is the hydrodynamic heating system. It is one of ultimate heating experiences that uses the principles of “quantum theory” - a revolutionary physics theory that enables the creation of enormous quantities of energy with minimum expenditures of resources."

Bwahahaha!!! To the experienced woo woo watcher, the above is instant confirmation this is a CON!
Things to watch for that scream loony idea are, claims of suppression by THEM, comparisons to Galileo, Einstein, the Wright brothers and Christopher Columbus, Invoking Quantum Physics, a tendency to red or green ink plus a lot of underlining, bad spelling, bad grammar and claims science doesn't know everything (Yes thats why science works so well).

If you want over unity zero, point energy etc there are dozens maybe hundreds of links on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgwxKeNwEas (or search Steve Elswick Tesla Tec) is my personal favorite, as Steve the chap doing the spiel, is obviously "tired and emotional" from some wicked office party. At times during the video a women with a party hat on wanders across the background looking well away. Had me in fits of laughter.
Cheers
Mark Stacey
www.cncprototyping.co.nz

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Post by tufty » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:51 pm

marksteamnz wrote:Steve the chap doing the spiel, is obviously "tired and emotional" from some wicked office party. At times during the video a women with a party hat on wanders across the background looking well away. Had me in fits of laughter.
Hahaha oh man, I want some of what he'd been drinking / smoking / sniffing. Must have been some "good shit".

Did you follow the steorn fiasco earlier this year? That got a few giggles from me, although I guess they are still sitting pretty on someone else's money, so maybe it's not so funny after all.

Simon

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Post by Viv » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:10 pm

tufty wrote:
marksteamnz wrote:Steve the chap doing the spiel, is obviously "tired and emotional" from some wicked office party. At times during the video a women with a party hat on wanders across the background looking well away. Had me in fits of laughter.
Hahaha oh man, I want some of what he'd been drinking / smoking / sniffing. Must have been some "good shit".

Did you follow the steorn fiasco earlier this year? That got a few giggles from me, although I guess they are still sitting pretty on someone else's money, so maybe it's not so funny after all.

Simon
So what did happen with (or not) with the Steorn thing? I just could not work up the enthusiasm to read all the documentation, maybe getting cynical in my old age:-)

This water heater thing has been around for years but as Marc correctly points out its a claim to far and a big helping of wishful physics! I seem to remember it on some science program back in the late 70s with film of it running at a fire-station some were.

Viv
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Monsieur le commentaire

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Post by tufty » Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:08 pm

Viv wrote:So what did happen with (or not) with the Steorn thing? I just could not work up the enthusiasm to read all the documentation, maybe getting cynical in my old age:-)
There was gonna be a demo at the kinetica museum in London with their magic perspex disk spinning for all eternity or somesuch. Webcams pointed at it, a big meeja event, and so on.

And the magick perspex disk?

It didn't spin. Blamed on exessive heat from the lights.
Steorn site wrote:Further to Steorn’s announcement yesterday (5th July) regarding the technical difficulties experienced during the installation of its “Orbo” technology at the Kinentica Museum in London, Steorn has decided to postpone the demonstration until further notice.

Sean McCarthy CEO stated that “technical problems arose during the installation of the demonstration unit in the display case on Wednesday evening. These problems were primarily due to excessive heat from the lighting in the main display area. Attempts to replace those parts affected by the heat led to further failures and as a result we have to postpone the public demonstration until a future date.”

He continued that “we apologise for the inconvenience caused to all the people who had made arrangements to visit the demonstration or were planning on viewing the demonstration online.”

Over the next few weeks the company will explore alternative dates for the public demonstration.
Also, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6283374.stm
Sir Eric Ash wrote:I believe that Mr McCarthy is truly convinced of the validity of his invention. It is, in my view, a case of prolonged self deception.

I ended our conversation by giving totally unsolicited advice: to drop Orbo and get back to software engineering.

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Steam Generator

Post by hagent » Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:08 pm

[quote="Quote "Kwant is the hydrodynamic heating system. It is one of ultimate heating experiences that uses the principles of “quantum theory” - a revolutionary physics theory that enables the creation of enormous quantities of energy with minimum expenditures of resources."[/quote]

I saw that too about the Quantum crap. But to the uninformed I'd just call it marketing.

Cheers,
Hagen Tannberg

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