True that
Buddy of mine has one of the "fake" Harley's, 4 gallon gas tank that he refills every 160 miles on his odo (no fuel gauge), thats pretty good imo.
How does the milage of the Ford Ka [Mexico] and the Chevy Comfort compare to euro cars? They are all tiny little guys with fewer ponies under the hood than an outboard motor on a pontoon boat....
E-85 Sucks
Moderator: Mike Everman
I just waved to my neighbor who was riding his Valkyrie while I was walking my dogs today. The other day I asked about the mileage and he told me he gets about 25 mpg which I thought was kind of unusual, but didn't say anything, so I decided to look his bike up just now.
"On the other hand, if you push the bike to near its limits you can drive the mileage down to about 20-25 mpg."
http://www.stolaf.edu/people/marshall/HondaPage.html
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/roadte ... to_07.html
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/roadte ... e_1500_f6/
"On the other hand, if you push the bike to near its limits you can drive the mileage down to about 20-25 mpg."
http://www.stolaf.edu/people/marshall/HondaPage.html
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/roadte ... to_07.html
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/roadte ... e_1500_f6/
Presentation is Everything
Hybrid links getting annoying
Normally it would be necessary to have someone strap me in a chair tuned to Fox and staple my eyelids open for me to ingest this much "fair and balanced" "information".
These links to specious claims about hybrids are just getting old.
For example, the gas savings are substantial. I get about 36 mpg in my Escape hybrid and I drive about 15k miles per year. I could do better than that, but I like air-conditioning etc. A four cylinder Escape gets about 24 mpg (less, but I'll be generous). At $3/gallon for gas, the savings come out to 15000*(1/24 - 1/36)*$3 = $625/year. There is about a $3000 price premium for the hybrid Escape, so that premium is paid off in gas costs alone over 5 years. Add in a $2600 federal tax credit and a $500 state rebate in my state and the difference is made up before you leave the showroom.
The "insane depreciation due to battery age" myth is just that -- an insane myth. The battery and hybrid drive have an 8 year warranty -- far better than any other component on the car. In addition, the batteries seldom fail in total. They are really built of small ganged cells, and failures typically involve the failure of individual cells. Thus repair involves replacing the individual, relatively small, failed cell -- not so bad. Any assumption that you have a $3000 repair bill (current list price of battery) awaiting you at the end of eight years is seriously flawed. It's like assuming that the engine and drive-chain in a conventional car will fail totally and with certainty at the end of its warranty. My guess is that I'll be able to get an after market replacement battery with much better energy density for half the price by the time I need to look at any sort of battery maintenance.
With respect to their durability, it seems likely that hybrids are more durable in general than their conventional counterparts. The engines apparently take a lot less of a beating -- the recommended oil-change schedule is every 10k miles. The brakes take less of a beating too (again, maintenance schedule is halved). Time will tell if these assumptions bear out.
I looked at hybrid cars a few years back, but this was prior to the incentives and the advent of $3/gallon gas. At that point, I couldn't justify the cost differential. Now the opposite is true. I don't want to hype them -- they just appear to be a somewhat better deal from a total cost of ownership perspective.
With regards to upcoming technologies that will crush the hybrid -- bring them on -- I'm in the market for a car in the next few years and I'll buy whatever make sense then. If I can get 80 mpg in a diesel that would be terrific. If it has some hybrid technology that would allow it to maintain this kind of mileage even in stop and go traffic then that would be even better.
The bitterness in this thread, the lengths to which folks are going in order to find discrediting "information" and the frequent invocation of bizarre logic, questionable assumptions and weird fringe cases to paint some kind of "hybrid conspiracy" is hard to understand. If there is any conspiracy, it is probaby directed towards undermining hybrids in favor of the status quo and you clowns are its unwitting vanguard.
These links to specious claims about hybrids are just getting old.
For example, the gas savings are substantial. I get about 36 mpg in my Escape hybrid and I drive about 15k miles per year. I could do better than that, but I like air-conditioning etc. A four cylinder Escape gets about 24 mpg (less, but I'll be generous). At $3/gallon for gas, the savings come out to 15000*(1/24 - 1/36)*$3 = $625/year. There is about a $3000 price premium for the hybrid Escape, so that premium is paid off in gas costs alone over 5 years. Add in a $2600 federal tax credit and a $500 state rebate in my state and the difference is made up before you leave the showroom.
The "insane depreciation due to battery age" myth is just that -- an insane myth. The battery and hybrid drive have an 8 year warranty -- far better than any other component on the car. In addition, the batteries seldom fail in total. They are really built of small ganged cells, and failures typically involve the failure of individual cells. Thus repair involves replacing the individual, relatively small, failed cell -- not so bad. Any assumption that you have a $3000 repair bill (current list price of battery) awaiting you at the end of eight years is seriously flawed. It's like assuming that the engine and drive-chain in a conventional car will fail totally and with certainty at the end of its warranty. My guess is that I'll be able to get an after market replacement battery with much better energy density for half the price by the time I need to look at any sort of battery maintenance.
With respect to their durability, it seems likely that hybrids are more durable in general than their conventional counterparts. The engines apparently take a lot less of a beating -- the recommended oil-change schedule is every 10k miles. The brakes take less of a beating too (again, maintenance schedule is halved). Time will tell if these assumptions bear out.
I looked at hybrid cars a few years back, but this was prior to the incentives and the advent of $3/gallon gas. At that point, I couldn't justify the cost differential. Now the opposite is true. I don't want to hype them -- they just appear to be a somewhat better deal from a total cost of ownership perspective.
With regards to upcoming technologies that will crush the hybrid -- bring them on -- I'm in the market for a car in the next few years and I'll buy whatever make sense then. If I can get 80 mpg in a diesel that would be terrific. If it has some hybrid technology that would allow it to maintain this kind of mileage even in stop and go traffic then that would be even better.
The bitterness in this thread, the lengths to which folks are going in order to find discrediting "information" and the frequent invocation of bizarre logic, questionable assumptions and weird fringe cases to paint some kind of "hybrid conspiracy" is hard to understand. If there is any conspiracy, it is probaby directed towards undermining hybrids in favor of the status quo and you clowns are its unwitting vanguard.
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Zippiot
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Is the recomended oil life really 10k miles...I would never drive the regular Escape nearly that far I dont know about the engine on the hybrid...
Toyotas and Lexus (what is plural form of Lexus?) have so much EGR that the oil in almost every one of their conventional cars has totally failed by 7.5k miles and is MAYO by the time you hit 10k. We have 6 Toyotas in the shop and 1 was purposely ran that far to demonstrate this, and sure enough right at the 10k mark when we popped open the oil drain plug nothing seeped out.
Best way to extend your oil is to not drive less than 7 miles each trip, and the whole point of the Hybrids was stop and go traffic or city streets 7 miles of that would be hell...
EGR sends exaust gasses back into the intake to burn off NOX and improve emissions...kills your oil and is no help to horsepower. My EGR is actually stuck closed, yay for me sucks for the local wildlife.
Synthetic and Petrol Based oil btw, I know for a fact that in the new Dodge Ram 1500 light duty driving with a "good" synthetic oil can have safe oil changes every 16,000 miles. Many others cars get this same performance but we only tested the Dodge.
Toyotas and Lexus (what is plural form of Lexus?) have so much EGR that the oil in almost every one of their conventional cars has totally failed by 7.5k miles and is MAYO by the time you hit 10k. We have 6 Toyotas in the shop and 1 was purposely ran that far to demonstrate this, and sure enough right at the 10k mark when we popped open the oil drain plug nothing seeped out.
Best way to extend your oil is to not drive less than 7 miles each trip, and the whole point of the Hybrids was stop and go traffic or city streets 7 miles of that would be hell...
EGR sends exaust gasses back into the intake to burn off NOX and improve emissions...kills your oil and is no help to horsepower. My EGR is actually stuck closed, yay for me sucks for the local wildlife.
Synthetic and Petrol Based oil btw, I know for a fact that in the new Dodge Ram 1500 light duty driving with a "good" synthetic oil can have safe oil changes every 16,000 miles. Many others cars get this same performance but we only tested the Dodge.
Sailing Student- How do I know if my life jacket is tight enough?
Me- Can you breathe?
Sailing Student- Yes
Me- Then its too loose!
Me- Can you breathe?
Sailing Student- Yes
Me- Then its too loose!
I think it is funny the exagerations of 2007 and the extreme revisions of 2008. Perhaps neither is fair to the buyer. And yet this is but a tiny picture, it only deals with the mileage. "Your mileage may vary."
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/06/05 ... pe-hybrid/
http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx? ... id=4023460
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectYear.jsp
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/06/05 ... pe-hybrid/
http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx? ... id=4023460
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectYear.jsp
Presentation is Everything
Oil changes
The recommended mileage between changes for the regular escape is 5k miles, iirc. The 10k recommended schedule for the hybrid suggests that its engine has an easier life.Zippiot wrote:Is the recomended oil life really 10k miles...I would never drive the regular Escape nearly that far I dont know about the engine on the hybrid...
Exactly -- you basically put your finger on why the hybrid's gas engine takes less of a beating. The electric motor is the main source of motive power at low speeds, which spares the ICE from the stress associated with stop and go driving.Zippiot wrote: Best way to extend your oil is to not drive less than 7 miles each trip, and the whole point of the Hybrids was stop and go traffic or city streets 7 miles of that would be hell...
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Jim Berquist
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E-85 Sucks
As I live 12 miles from town , thats not a problem. My dad just gave me a KIA van. It's supose to get 18 town and 25 HY,,,, I don't know yet. It has a 21gl tank and took 1/2 to get home, 240 miles. I think it may be all right. So am I Green or a User?
Jim
I didn't have to stop and recharge.
Jim
I didn't have to stop and recharge.
WHAT TO FRAP, IT WORKED![url=callto://james.a.berquist]
[/url]
[/url]-
Jim Berquist
- Posts: 1396
- Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:34 am
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- Location: DEMING NM 88030
E-85 Sucks
The next time I go to Tucson, I am bringing about 4 , 55gal drums. The gas here is $3.09 and there it was $2.43......
Yea Right!
Jim
Yea Right!
Jim
WHAT TO FRAP, IT WORKED![url=callto://james.a.berquist][/url]
[/url]-
Eric
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- Contact:
Im not going to atempt to read all the pages right now, I took a trip out west and had my own negative experience with E85.
My car was doing fine, filled it up, continued driving..... then half a tank later the engine would spontaneously just stop running and start up again..... while doing 80 bumper to bumper on the interstate.
luckily I was able to get off to the side and there was a truck stop that i was able to push the car into, which was not fun either.
Checked everything out and got it running again, and since the rest of the way was down hill to the next town, I decided to give it a go rather than stay stuck in the middle of nowhere.
Got some heet gasline antifreeze and poured it in, filled it up again, and it worked fine the rest of the tank.
Next tank of gas from a totally different station, and it starts doing the same thing, pour in the bottle of heet and its fine for the rest of the tank.
I know boats have problems with E85 sucking up moisture like crazy, with the humidity around here I think I am going to have to keep a couple bottles of heet in the trunk.
Eric
My car was doing fine, filled it up, continued driving..... then half a tank later the engine would spontaneously just stop running and start up again..... while doing 80 bumper to bumper on the interstate.
luckily I was able to get off to the side and there was a truck stop that i was able to push the car into, which was not fun either.
Checked everything out and got it running again, and since the rest of the way was down hill to the next town, I decided to give it a go rather than stay stuck in the middle of nowhere.
Got some heet gasline antifreeze and poured it in, filled it up again, and it worked fine the rest of the tank.
Next tank of gas from a totally different station, and it starts doing the same thing, pour in the bottle of heet and its fine for the rest of the tank.
I know boats have problems with E85 sucking up moisture like crazy, with the humidity around here I think I am going to have to keep a couple bottles of heet in the trunk.
Eric
Talking like a pirate does not qualify as experience, this should be common sense, as pirates have little real life experience in anything other than smelling bad, and contracting venereal diseases
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Jim Berquist
- Posts: 1396
- Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:34 am
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- Location: DEMING NM 88030
E-85 Sucks
Water! Water will sink in gas. Water will sink in oil . Water will sink in Diesel. Water will mix with alcohol. To test gas for alcohol you just take a test tube and fill it 1/4 with the suspect gas. Then add 1/4 amount of water. Shake like hell and let settle. Anything more then the 1/4 water you added setting on the bottom is alcohol.!!!!!
JIM
JIM
WHAT TO FRAP, IT WORKED![url=callto://james.a.berquist][/url]
[/url]"The good news is that nobody has yet been injured or electrocuted by a hybrid electric vehicle. An extensive search of news archives failed to turn up any reports of service technicians, emergency responders or motorists being zapped by a high voltage hybrid. Let's hope it stays that way."
http://www.aa1car.com/library/hybrid_hazards.htm
http://www.aa1car.com/library/hybrid_hazards.htm
Presentation is Everything
"Does anyone have information on EMF's coming from electric vehicles or any websites that discuss the topic. I am considering purchasing one, but friends said they sold theirs after they found out the EMF was way too high."
http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/007316.html
http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/007316.html
Presentation is Everything
"The kicker for me is a line in the Honda Insight Service Advisor and Parts Counterperson Guide, and I quote: "Anyone with a heart pacemaker, ICD, or other medical implant that can be affected by strong magnetic fields should stay away from the rotor." The driver is not far from that rotor, and that is truly frightening."
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automoti ... sight.html
Fair and balanced. ha
"One Born Every Minute
But if you still feel uneasy about the effect EMF might have on your family and your person, there are those who would love you to get in touch! First choice: see if the Amish community will take you in. But if living, working, and traveling without any of the conveniences of modern life is beyond your ability or desire for safety, you can always purchase a handheld EMF meter. Although notoriously inaccurate, a handheld meter just may help you place your bed at a distance from that hot spot on the wall, locate that pesky poltergeist, or know when to don the tinfoil hat. And if that's not enough, you can always slip into some slinky silver underwear, the equivalent of yesteryear's hair shirts for the true believer. Somebody should tell Mel Gibson."
http://www.hybridcars.com/safety/electr ... brids.html
"They are more like the fields around a permanent magnet and lots of people claim good health effects from permanent magnets."
http://www.hybridcars.com/forums/archiv ... -t364.html
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automoti ... sight.html
Fair and balanced. ha
"One Born Every Minute
But if you still feel uneasy about the effect EMF might have on your family and your person, there are those who would love you to get in touch! First choice: see if the Amish community will take you in. But if living, working, and traveling without any of the conveniences of modern life is beyond your ability or desire for safety, you can always purchase a handheld EMF meter. Although notoriously inaccurate, a handheld meter just may help you place your bed at a distance from that hot spot on the wall, locate that pesky poltergeist, or know when to don the tinfoil hat. And if that's not enough, you can always slip into some slinky silver underwear, the equivalent of yesteryear's hair shirts for the true believer. Somebody should tell Mel Gibson."
http://www.hybridcars.com/safety/electr ... brids.html
"They are more like the fields around a permanent magnet and lots of people claim good health effects from permanent magnets."
http://www.hybridcars.com/forums/archiv ... -t364.html
Presentation is Everything
All this is cut and paste. (Not my words) I liked the part about trains.
Mark
Hybrid-electric cars
What's a hybrid?
There are two different ways to use the term "hybrid;" as in "hybrid of two types of vehicle," e.g. a combination of minivan and SUV (Pacifica, Aztek), and as in "hybrid powertrain," which is the more relevant usage. A hybrid-electric car combines an electrical and a fossil-fuel powertrain. An electric car is very efficient, but has a short range and a long recharge time; a hybrid-electric car can make its own electricity and therefore avoids the range and recharge problem, and potentially can be more efficient than a similar gas car. However, the savings from using an electric engine as well as a gas engine - even with regenerative braking thrown in - can be offset by increased weight; so some hybrid-electric cars, according to hybrid engineer Evan Boberg (whose book Common Sense Not Required is reasonably priced) are no more efficient than an ordinary car with more lightweight components, low-resistance tires, etc. Toyota’s hybrids do appear to be more efficient, but the Honda Civic and Insight, according to Boberg, are no more efficient than they would be with gasoline engines. Diesel engines, incidentally, are almost invariably more efficient than hybrids, all other factors being equal, on the highway, where regenerative braking is barely used.
Amusingly, hybrid technology is not new - it has been used in diesel locomotives for decades; they do not apply the diesel power directly to the wheels, but use diesel engines to generate power for electric motors at the wheels.
Should I worry about electromagnetic fields in a hybrid car?
“Fishexpo,” a fleet mechanic with hybrid experience, wrote: “They are not much different than what is used in conventional cars. EMF is a very broad term - include electric as well as magnetic fields. Comes from various sources - anything electrical, moving, even biologicals can induce fields. Strongest intensity will be closest to the source and will drop off markedly away from the source.
“I remember reading that some people were concerned with levels in their house and cars. Levels were comparable between hybrids and conventional cars. All depends on where you sit in the car - in hybrids - source was strongest close to the batteries (5-30 milliGauss) level - in convential cars, it was the heater (5-30 milliGauss) level. In the seats they were almost the same (5-15 milliGauss). Some cars are higher than others - depends on how close you sit next to a source (engine, ignition, fans, electricals, etc.) Cell phones have that level or more in normal use - so this fear in hybrid tech is a total wash.”
http://www.toyoland.com/faq.html
Mark
Hybrid-electric cars
What's a hybrid?
There are two different ways to use the term "hybrid;" as in "hybrid of two types of vehicle," e.g. a combination of minivan and SUV (Pacifica, Aztek), and as in "hybrid powertrain," which is the more relevant usage. A hybrid-electric car combines an electrical and a fossil-fuel powertrain. An electric car is very efficient, but has a short range and a long recharge time; a hybrid-electric car can make its own electricity and therefore avoids the range and recharge problem, and potentially can be more efficient than a similar gas car. However, the savings from using an electric engine as well as a gas engine - even with regenerative braking thrown in - can be offset by increased weight; so some hybrid-electric cars, according to hybrid engineer Evan Boberg (whose book Common Sense Not Required is reasonably priced) are no more efficient than an ordinary car with more lightweight components, low-resistance tires, etc. Toyota’s hybrids do appear to be more efficient, but the Honda Civic and Insight, according to Boberg, are no more efficient than they would be with gasoline engines. Diesel engines, incidentally, are almost invariably more efficient than hybrids, all other factors being equal, on the highway, where regenerative braking is barely used.
Amusingly, hybrid technology is not new - it has been used in diesel locomotives for decades; they do not apply the diesel power directly to the wheels, but use diesel engines to generate power for electric motors at the wheels.
Should I worry about electromagnetic fields in a hybrid car?
“Fishexpo,” a fleet mechanic with hybrid experience, wrote: “They are not much different than what is used in conventional cars. EMF is a very broad term - include electric as well as magnetic fields. Comes from various sources - anything electrical, moving, even biologicals can induce fields. Strongest intensity will be closest to the source and will drop off markedly away from the source.
“I remember reading that some people were concerned with levels in their house and cars. Levels were comparable between hybrids and conventional cars. All depends on where you sit in the car - in hybrids - source was strongest close to the batteries (5-30 milliGauss) level - in convential cars, it was the heater (5-30 milliGauss) level. In the seats they were almost the same (5-15 milliGauss). Some cars are higher than others - depends on how close you sit next to a source (engine, ignition, fans, electricals, etc.) Cell phones have that level or more in normal use - so this fear in hybrid tech is a total wash.”
http://www.toyoland.com/faq.html
Presentation is Everything