Re-engineering the bullet/casing idea

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Zippiot
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Re-engineering the bullet/casing idea

Post by Zippiot » Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:54 pm

As a child (and adult who am I kidding) I built a few pneumatic cannons, or air cannon potato gun etc...

Well there are a few designs of pneumatic cannons, I noticed a bullet and its casing are similar to the common valved type, but the valved is not the most powerful cannon...

The standard bullet/pneumatic cannon has the projectile in-front of the stored energy, compressed air for the cannon and gunpowder for the bullet. A more powerful configuration for a pneumatic cannon is called a Diaphragm Cannon, or quick exhaust from this site http://www.xinventions.com/main/spud/ho ... on%20works:

The idea I have is to design a bullet like the quick exhaust cannon, a tiny barrell extends inside the casing and contains the bullet. The gunpowder is contaiend around the tiny barrel, I'll attempt to draw a picture of all of this...

The reason this type of cannon is more effective than the valved cannon is that more air can get into the barrel quicker...but a bullet doesnt have a valve so this may not be a problem...

Well I think batteries stack better than bullets, plus a bunch more powder can be packed into a similar sized case, a longer slimmer bullet can keep higher speeds for the same mass...


If it needs more clarity just ask!
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Jim Berquist
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Post by Jim Berquist » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:27 pm

Hi Zip:

Zip, A rifle bullet is only inserted the length of the cartridge neck.

There have been many attempts to improve the cartridge. There was a Rocket like projectile developed back in the 70's I think. Some time back along then someone came out with thing called the Tround. It was a triangle shaped cartridge with the bullet inserted somewhat like you show. I don't know what ever became of that one. The Rocket Bullet was cool as it had no recoil. But it also had no accuracy. The rocket nozzles were angled as to cause it to spin down a smooth bore.

I see what your tring to do! Back in WWII Japan had a anti tank/vehical round that was assume. It was something like a .30 cal bullet pushed by something like a .50 cal BMG cartrage. It moved along 20,000 FPS. Don't hold me to that but it ZIPPED......Ha Zipped!!!!!

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg172-e.htm



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Al Belli
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Bullet / Cartridge

Post by Al Belli » Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:01 pm

Hi,

The pistol round was named the Gyro Jet, And rifles were produced later.

The Tround was an expendible fiberglass, electrically fired round that was designed to fit into a trochoidally shaped chamber formed on the surface of rotating cylinders ( part on each cylinder ) that were in contact at their peripheries.

This design produced a gun that was designed to fire at 30,000 rounds/Min.

Testing above 17,000 rounds/Min. revealed a feed problem that resulted in a lot of chopped up rounds. ( and probably a lot of excitement ! )

Al Belli

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Post by Zippiot » Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:08 pm

Rounds per minute or feet per second?
Either way its a lot of shots fired or a lot of sound barriers broken!!

Well my bullet design, if I was the first to come up with it, looks to me like most of the effort of the expanding gasses is used to push the bullet forwards. It might make for less gas leakage which I heard is a problem in many modern high rate of fire pistols. Also it is more compact in one direction, length. I think that is better b/c a slight increase in length doesnt add as much volume as a slight increase in diameter. So the bullet fired will have more penetration value as it is slimmer and moving faster, also should have the same mass/weight.

A problem I see is that the expanding gasses can crimp the tube golding the bullet before it is projected from the case...
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Post by steve » Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:54 pm

One thing you have to keep in mind is that a long skinny bullet is quite difficult to stabilize in flight. Consequently you would require a tighter turn on the rifling and increased drag in the barrel, ultimately nullifying the effect you are trying to achieve.

Achieving very high velocities from a rifle is not particularly difficult, but there downsides. A good example would be the .17 Remington, which could accelerate a .17 caliber round to easily over 4000 feet per second. The problem with a cartridge that hot is that it quickly became known for "eating" barrels. It faded into obscurity pretty quickly, and I’ve only ever come across one rifle that was chambered for it.

The closest thing I’ve seen to what you are proposing would have to be the case-less ammunition for the Heckler and Koch G-11 weapon system.
Take a look:
http://www.hkpro.com/g11.htm
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Re-engineering the bullet/casing idea

Post by Mark » Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:34 am

If I may diverge a bit, the super magnum enclosed bullet sketch/shape Zip posted attracted my attention because it is "kind of" like the shape of my fire ring thrower, where instead of having a snorkel on top of a steel canister, I put the snorkel internally into the canister where it aspirated the fuel off the bottom and made the most entertaining green fire rings that grew to 6 to 8 feet across at night. All from a one pint canister and half inch plumbing pipe. It was just a single shot device.
I can't find a picture of my little pint snorkeler, but it's like if you imagine this larger snorkeler with the snorkel internal, inside the tank like an esophagus. I wouldn't try the setup on something so large as this pictured tank and snorkel size however. T'would be too much confinement I think or at the very least very loud. ha
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Post by Zippiot » Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:04 am

I'm not sure on the exact number or if it is even an exact number, but around 5000fps the barrel can no longer be rifled. Tanks use smoothe bore barrels, to the best of my knowledge...

This snorkler you described excites and confuses me, any drawings or links of pictures?

So modern rifles are already pushing the limits of steel? Guess we need a new metal, or how about tungsten (carbide or whatever those never dull blades are made of) inserts to make the rifling last longer? I'm sure if there was an easy/safe/cheap way to improve the stuff it would be out there by now.
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Re-engineering the bullet/casing idea

Post by Mark » Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:17 am

Look at the second download picture. That is the design of the fire ring thrower. You don't need a spark plug as pictured, you can just as easily light the tip/top of the snorkel with a flame.
Funny the way I found it, I typed "fire ring thrower" in a Google search. ha
http://tinyurl.com/35vm4b
http://tinyurl.com/365yp4
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