aberrant pop bottle fun

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Mark
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re: aberrant pop bottle fun

Post by Mark » Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:09 am

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Dang911
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re: aberrant pop bottle fun

Post by Dang911 » Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:07 am

Well because Hurricane WILMA (bitch) kind of destroyed South Florida, I have been off school for 2 weeks. This has made me kind of board.........

I have been playing around with the Potassium Permanganate I got (5lb's) but even that has gotten old (I now am a KMNO4 expert hehe). Watching a recent episode of Mythbusters, I got the initiative to make a small batch of gun cotton (nitrocellulose). Its been a project I wanted to do for a while, but's been set on the back burner. My main question is about the nitration process.

When you introduce nitration to the cotton, how important is the concentration of the Nitric Acid. For instance, could I get the same end results using 1M VS. 18.6 M Nitric Acid, AS LONG AS THERE IS AN ABUNDANT SUPPLY OF IT?

At the same time, I don't think I will even be able to get my hands on Nitric Acid, (any suggestions?) so I think I will just make some. It should be easy with just Potassium Nitrate and Sulfuric Acid (drain cleaner?)

KNO3(s) + H2SO4(l) = HNO3(l) + KHSO4(s)

The potassium bisulfate (KHSO4) will precipitate out, and I should be left with nice and easy Nitric Acid.....

OVER AN ICE BATH (Mythbusters didn't do this, they are dumb) I will combine equal parts of both Sulphuric and Nitric acid. I was thinking of soaking the cotton in that solution for 1 hour?....anyone have any comments? Then washing/rinsing it thoroughly.....boiling?......again comments......

After all is said and done, I will store it under water, perfectly safe that way, and will only dry what I need, right before its use........
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paul skinner
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Re: re: aberrant pop bottle fun

Post by paul skinner » Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:09 pm

Dang911 wrote:Well because Hurricane WILMA (bitch) kind of destroyed South Florida, I have been off school for 2 weeks. This has made me kind of board.........

I have been playing around with the Potassium Permanganate I got (5lb's) but even that has gotten old (I now am a KMNO4 expert hehe). Watching a recent episode of Mythbusters, I got the initiative to make a small batch of gun cotton (nitrocellulose). Its been a project I wanted to do for a while, but's been set on the back burner. My main question is about the nitration process.

When you introduce nitration to the cotton, how important is the concentration of the Nitric Acid. For instance, could I get the same end results using 1M VS. 18.6 M Nitric Acid, AS LONG AS THERE IS AN ABUNDANT SUPPLY OF IT?

At the same time, I don't think I will even be able to get my hands on Nitric Acid, (any suggestions?) so I think I will just make some. It should be easy with just Potassium Nitrate and Sulfuric Acid (drain cleaner?)

KNO3(s) + H2SO4(l) = HNO3(l) + KHSO4(s)

The potassium bisulfate (KHSO4) will precipitate out, and I should be left with nice and easy Nitric Acid.....

OVER AN ICE BATH (Mythbusters didn't do this, they are dumb) I will combine equal parts of both Sulphuric and Nitric acid. I was thinking of soaking the cotton in that solution for 1 hour?....anyone have any comments? Then washing/rinsing it thoroughly.....boiling?......again comments......

After all is said and done, I will store it under water, perfectly safe that way, and will only dry what I need, right before its use........
Yeah. But why? It's not much use for anything outside of an IED, and it's really a low order one at that. Plus, you're just asking for a call from the dept of facism and homeland xenophobia.

One of the things I've learned as I've got older is, just because I can. Doesn't mean I should.

It's up to you either way, but I'd build something more usefull, like a railgun, or a Valveless PJ, before I'd screw with something that could potentially blow off my fingers.


Same goes with KMNO4. You do know it's poisonous right, and is listed as a biohazard material?

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re: aberrant pop bottle fun

Post by Dang911 » Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:35 pm

Yes, but you do know KMNO4 is in all the water we drink!!!! ALSO, I would be more likely to die from contact with the ethylene glycol, than the potassium permanganate, hehe.

Gun Cotton really isn't that dangerous to make, if you know your chemistry, which I do. I would never consider making its big brother, nitroglycerine. They both follow the same steps initially, until the nitroglycerine gets its glycerine, that's the dangerous part, which is not included in the making of nitrocellulose (Gun Cotton).

As far as its use, eh....I would play with it, experiment, and smile.......
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Mark
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re: aberrant pop bottle fun

Post by Mark » Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:16 pm

Cleanliness is next to godliness.
Mark
http://academickids.com/encyclopedia/n/ ... ulose.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/Nitric-Acid-70-Tech ... dZViewItem
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encycl ... lulose.htm
Importance of washing and chopping the tubular cotton fibers.
http://www.chemistry.usna.edu/navapps/E ... p_2005.pdf
I was reading where static electricity can make for a bad day if you are toying with a large quantity of highly nitrated cellulose.
Last edited by Mark on Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dang911
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re: aberrant pop bottle fun

Post by Dang911 » Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:27 pm

Chemicals on Ebay are so over priced. They can get away with it though, because anybody looking to buy chemicals on Ebay, is at there last resort, because obviously no one else would sell them the chemical.......LOL

I would be just as happy using a large quantity of 1 mole concentrated acid, instead of a small quantity of........lets say......16 mole concentrated acid. Either way, it will get the job done, with the same results in the end.

I will have to figure out the percent yield for a couple different concentrations of the nitric acid, introducing nitration to the cellulose (cotton). Then I will know how much nitric acid I truly need at what concentration.
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Mark
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re: aberrant pop bottle fun

Post by Mark » Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:12 am

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Mark
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Re: re: aberrant pop bottle fun

Post by Mark » Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:49 am

Dang911 wrote:Yes, but you do know KMNO4 is in all the water we drink!!!! ALSO, I would be more likely to die from contact with the ethylene glycol, than the potassium permanganate, hehe.

Gun Cotton really isn't that dangerous to make, if you know your chemistry, which I do. I would never consider making its big brother, nitroglycerine. They both follow the same steps initially, until the nitroglycerine gets its glycerine, that's the dangerous part, which is not included in the making of nitrocellulose (Gun Cotton).

As far as its use, eh....I would play with it, experiment, and smile.......
http://www.healthdangers.com/toxic-subs ... ing-fumes/
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p6005.htm
Mark
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Jonny69
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re: aberrant pop bottle fun

Post by Jonny69 » Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:54 pm

I think my chemistry teacher told me you need to use fuming nitric acid which is ultra strong concentration and you can use either cotton, blotting paper or those cellullose sponges for cleaning the kitchen with. Never actually tried myself. I made gunpowder a few times, mainly unsuccessfully, but the time I got the mixture right it scared the hell out of me so I didn't do it again :D

Jon

Dang911
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re: aberrant pop bottle fun

Post by Dang911 » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:15 am

Fuming nitric/sulfuric is A LOT more concentrated and thus more unsafe. Its primarily used for nitroglycerin, but I suppose it could be used to make a really powerfully batch of gun cotton.
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