Another (Crazy?) Idea for Engine Kits

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re: Another (Crazy?) Idea for Engine Kits

Postby Dang911 » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:06 pm

So how is the prototype engine coming?
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re: Another (Crazy?) Idea for Engine Kits

Postby larry cottrill » Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:27 pm

I got bogged down cutting the dome, with my crude hand tools not working well at all, all of a sudden. So, I got an air-driven nibbler, but of course, didn't realize that I'd need an air lubricator (just picked that up today). I'll need to figure out the few extra fittings I need to hook it all together, then I can actually get some practice with it. Sorry for the delay - I certainly wasn't expecting that kind of trouble with the simplest part of the whole thing.

I did figure out how to take care of the starting tube problem, though. Basically, I'll provide two steel rings, one at the front of the engine mount lug and one at the rear. You'll thread the pre-formed tube assembly through these and swing the top part into alignment with the intake and at the proper spacing. Then, just tack weld at both rings and you've got it. This is the final step, which keeps it out of the way of the all-important weld between the cone and tailpipe.

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re: Another (Crazy?) Idea for Engine Kits

Postby larry cottrill » Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:07 am

Well, for various reasons I have been mighty slow keeping up my end of this bargain. Tonight, I did finally get the intake fully welded into the chamber cone - doesn't sound like much, but is actually the most difficult and demanding part of the work. If I do make kits like this, it will NOT be this design, but rather, back to the classic FWE Short Lady.

At any rate, I still have yet to try out my new pneumatic nibbler - but that comes next, i.e. making the front dome and getting it welded on. I may be able to use this tool on the engine mounts, as well. The tool is all rigged now with the lubricator and quick-connect fitting, etc. It should be fun to see it work.

Keep the faith ... stay tuned.

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re: Another (Crazy?) Idea for Engine Kits

Postby Dang911 » Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:13 pm

NO RUSH NOW........I am of only 2% with power in Florida....and I DO NOT HAVE WATER!!!!!! Things are a little rough here, and Broward is totaly closed with a 7:00 pm curfew, no school for me for at least another week. My school, along with 50 others were badly damaged, and then there is the no water, or electricity thing........

That also means no mail, although I hope they will start delivering mail again today or tomorrow......

On the good side.... I have gotten my own personal helicopter air show!! Never in my life have I seen such a fleet of different helicopters flying. I usually wake up each morning from a convoy of 3 black hawks making a trip to a local drop zone. There is a major air traffic pattern that had always been over my house.
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re: Another (Crazy?) Idea for Engine Kits

Postby OctoberRust » Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:23 am

Larry-

I'm one of the people who would be interested in a "limited welding" kit. I've got access to people with welding expertise (though I'm not one of those people), although I am somewhat limited in access to raw materials, etc.

I'd be interested in buying a kit.
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Re: re: Another (Crazy?) Idea for Engine Kits

Postby larry cottrill » Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:14 pm

OctoberRust wrote:Larry-

I'm one of the people who would be interested in a "limited welding" kit. I've got access to people with welding expertise (though I'm not one of those people), although I am somewhat limited in access to raw materials, etc.

I'd be interested in buying a kit.

Rust -

At this point, I can't afford to make one that a reasonable person would want to pay for. That's one of the reasons I'm interested in having someone try it - to get their idea of a price point.

Someday ... someday ...

I imagine that you're a reasonable person; what do YOU think a front end kit that you'd build into a plain steel engine should have for a price?

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re: Another (Crazy?) Idea for Engine Kits

Postby larry cottrill » Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:45 pm

Dang -

I finally got a chance to try out my new Ingersoll-Rand sheet metal nibbler. The first thing I noticed from my practice cuts was that my right shoe and pants leg were soaked with oil after a couple of minutes! I met a guy at church on Saturday who verified that I was wasting oil, and could cut way back on the setting of the lubricator. So, I did that, and tried cutting out a couple of actual FWE dome disks from some 22 ga sheet that I bought.

The tool works great with my new compressor, though it is a noisy sucker. On straight cuts and slight curves, it's like cutting paper. On tighter curves (like the outside circle of the dome sheets), it gets more difficult because the sheet metal curl that comes upward through the mouth of the tool (i.e. the kerf of the cut) is stiff enough to resist turning the tool. But, I figured out how to work it, and got a couple nice dome pieces on my first try. I now have one of these rolled out and ready to weld up for your kit!

Keep the faith and stay tuned ... you will have your kit one of these days!

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re: Another (Crazy?) Idea for Engine Kits

Postby Dang911 » Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:00 pm

Wonderful.....

As far as oil, I tend to do more oiling manually than inline. I have an inline oiler, but I set its rate to a vary low mist. I use it to clean various things, the shop, myself..... I tend to fully rebuild my tools every couple of months. It will shock you what you find inside. Not only dirt and metal grit, but water trapped in some areas.

I hope you do have a water filter, and a good one at that. That is crucial to keeping a tool running smooth, and efficient. If you have water in your line, a tool will run noticeably underpowered without torque. Equally important, frequently drain your tank. I live in a very humid place, and can drain easily 1 liter of water a week. Depending on your compressor, your tank may, or may not be coated with a sealant. Luckily mine is, so my water is clear, and not rusting my tank away.........



NOTHING LIKE A GOOD LUBE....
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re: Another (Crazy?) Idea for Engine Kits

Postby larry cottrill » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:27 am

Dang -

Points well taken. Since I only have the one tool, I have the lubricator mounted right at the end of the tool, which I hope will leave my nice new hose clean and oil-free inside. If I get more tools in the future, I will get or make some kind of caddy for them and mount the lubricator in the caddy. Then, I'll use a short (8 or 10 ft) hose from the caddy/lubricator to the quick-change fitting at the tool end.

I just finished welding up the dome and plug mount less than a half hour ago, and looks good to me. The front of the chamber cone is still somewhat out of round, as usual, so this will need a little hand working before I can weld it on to "bottle it all up". After that, I can prepare the engine mounts and the air/fuel tube.

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re: Another (Crazy?) Idea for Engine Kits

Postby Dang911 » Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:56 pm

If you would like to save time on this kit....leave off the engine mounts....

Over the years I have acquired some 1/16-3/32 blue tempered spring steel plate. This stuff is hefty let me tell you......Its the hardest steel I have ever worked with, and I can barely cut it. It bends with some heat and then retains that shape well, turning into a semi flexible mount. The benefit here being, the engine when yellow hot, will not contort. It also reduces vibration.

On the other hand..... Since I will be documenting this, you may want it to be as "scale" as possible.
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re: Another (Crazy?) Idea for Engine Kits

Postby larry cottrill » Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:40 pm

Dang -

The dome is now welded on. Sorry, I will definitely provide the engine mount lugs. This accomplishes two important things: (1) It helps the attachment of the tailpipe by the builder to be an essentially self-aligning assembly process; (2) It gives me a place to anchor the air/fuel tube without relying on careful positioning while welding to the tailpipe (as I've done on my own builds) - should be a much better solution, again practically self-aligning.

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re: Another (Crazy?) Idea for Engine Kits

Postby Dang911 » Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:10 am

So where are we at now?
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re: Another (Crazy?) Idea for Engine Kits

Postby larry cottrill » Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:31 pm

Dang -

All right, I am slow as winter molasses, but we've just about got it. I'll have a few pictures before the end of the week. The mount lugs are welded on and aligned as precisely as I can get them. It all looks pretty good, at least to me.

I may not have described the fuel/air pipe setup very well. The air pipe (steel) will have a long, straight lower section parallel to the engine axis. This will be slid forward through two guide rings welded to the left engine mount. The tube will extend slightly forward of the chamber front end, but can be shortened and bent outward after welding, if desired. The only attachment of this pipe will be small welds at each of the two rings. The fuel tube will be 1/8-inch copper, and will be installed in the air pipe. The bottom end will be curved up out of the way, for unhindered welding of the air tube to the rings. Once those welds are done, the bottom of the fuel tube can be brought down to run forward, more of less parallel to the long leg of the air pipe, or cut back and curved outward as desired.

In every gem there is a flaw ;-) Here's one: Because of the way this engine is put together, the rear of the chamber cone is not perfectly round, even though it is cut off square to the axis. The reason is the two welds at the sides of the intake 'spade'. Because of the stiffness added by these welds, the rear opening is slightly pear-shaped - what I might call 'acorn' shaped. I hope this will show in the last photo I shot, so you can see what I mean. This would create a problem if your tailpipe was heavy walled pipe or something, but with the thin tubing recommended, you would just have to tap it lightly in a couple spots with your ball peen. I might be able to get it closer to circular if I can figure out the right technique.

This defect is very slight - in fact, if you just butt welded the tailpipe on, the weld itself would probably cover it. But, I want to get you to use the technique of making a slightly flared end so that it self-aligns onto the cone, since I think that's the simplest way to have a beginner get it right. The flare just gets blended in all around after initial tack welding. There would be no such error in a Short Lady kit - it's entirely due to the way the Sveldt Lady intake gets built on.

Speaking of the intake, the flare is only about 10 mm in front of the seam you'll be welding between the cone and tailpipe. With modern techniques, will there be weld splatter that could damage the flare while working that close in? If so, I'll recommend making a U-shaped sheet steel shield to go around the cone to hide the flare while welding. What do you think?

Another detail: I will provide a rear tailpipe support formed out of 1/16-inch SS welding rod. This will be made to provide the right height to align the tailpipe vertically out near the rear end, and can be left on as a tailpipe brace on the finished mounted engine. It will be a slightly loose fit around 1.25-inch OD tubing, and will be the correct height if the mounting holes for it are carefully located. You would tie it down to the base with a couple of small wood screws or whatever. How does this sound?

So: What you will do is make a base out of flat wood and a sheet aluminum shield to cover the wood surface. I'll provide dimensioned drawings for the base and shield, including screw layouts. You will draw a centerline down the middle of the wood face and locate the four holes for the main mount lugs and the two little holes for the tail brace around this centerline. That means you will also drill six holes in the aluminum shield. Probably, you will also be making a steel sheet metal shield to protect the intake flare, as described above. Then, you will cut and flare (and probably, slightly re-shape) the front end of the tailpipe tube. You'll slip the tailpipe brace onto the tube and flare the rear end (unless you want to be cautious and start out with it a bit overlong). You'll mount the engine front end assembly with four #10 or 3/16-inch (or 4 mm) bolts or screws, with the aluminum shield sandwiched between the engine and base. Then, set the tailpipe roughly in place and secure the tail brace with two small screws. Carefully fit the front end of the tailpipe onto the rear of the cone, blocking the rear end so it won't slide back. Drop the flare shield into place, if used. Verify the tailpipe alignment, and tack weld in four places, about 90 degrees apart around the seam. Let cool, and remove all the screws so your engine can be moved around, and then make four more intermediate tack welds. Next, with the flare shield in place, finish weld by alternating between opposite sides while welding the 1/8 circumference gaps (this way, you should end up with near perfect alignment of the cone and pipe). Next, you'll verify alignment of the fuel tube and slide it into place through two guide rings provided. Get the outlet end lined up perfectly in the center of the flare (as seen from the top), and shim and wire it in place, then tack weld at the two rings. Remove the shimming and do a final check of alignment, and re-bend the forward end of the fuel pipe to bring it out in front of the engine dome. Finally, re-mount your engine onto the wood base with the four large and two small screws, again using the aluminum shield. That's all there is to it.

We're getting close. All I have left is the fuel/air tube and its guide rings and the SS tailpipe brace of exactly the right height. Once I'm satisfied with all that, I'll ship it out to you. Watch for posted photos in the next couple of days.

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Front End Kit 'As Built' Dimensions

Postby larry cottrill » Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:57 pm

Just a scale dimension drawing showing how the front end ended up. The side-to-side spacing of the mounting holes is 2.5 inches, or 64 mm.

L Cottrill
Attachments
FWE_Ver_III_actual_dims.gif
FWE Version III Sveldt Lady (front end kit version) 'as built' dimensions. Drawing Copyright 2005 Larry Cottrill
FWE_Ver_III_actual_dims.gif (6.53 KiB) Viewed 5311 times
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Kit Pix

Postby larry cottrill » Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:54 pm

OK - here are a few shots of what's been done so far.

L Cottrill
Attachments
FWEIII_chamber_intake_welded_crop1_small.jpg
Chamber cone with the intake assembly welded in place, at last. Photo Copyright 2005 Larry Cottrill
FWEIII_chamber_intake_welded_crop1_small.jpg (147.92 KiB) Viewed 5469 times
FWEIII_chamber_inside_view_crop1_small.jpg
Looking into the front of the chamber - the intake spout is just visible above bottom edge. Photo Copyright 2005 Larry Cottrill
FWEIII_chamber_inside_view_crop1_small.jpg (87.14 KiB) Viewed 5469 times
FWEIII_domes_cut_crop1_small.jpg
Front domes, one formed - the first pieces I ever cut with my air nibbler. Photo Copyright 2005 Larry Cottrill
FWEIII_domes_cut_crop1_small.jpg (100.64 KiB) Viewed 5467 times
FWEIII_dome_welded_crop1_small.jpg
Finished front dome with plug mount welded in place. Striations on face of nut will be filed smooth. Photo Copyright 2005 Larry Cottrill
FWEIII_dome_welded_crop1_small.jpg (143.06 KiB) Viewed 5467 times
FWEIII_chamber_dome_welded_crop1_small.jpg
Combustion chamber with dome welded on. Almost done! Photo Copyright 2005 Larry Cottrill
FWEIII_chamber_dome_welded_crop1_small.jpg (125.54 KiB) Viewed 5468 times
FWEIII_chamber_finished_left_rear_crop1_small.jpg
Finished chamber with mount lugs in place. Photo Copyright 2005 Larry Cottrill
FWEIII_chamber_finished_left_rear_crop1_small.jpg (125.01 KiB) Viewed 5470 times
FWEIII_chamber_finished_cut_end_crop1_small.jpg
Rear end of chamber after cutoff - note slight out-of-round area just behind intake flare. Photo Copyright 2005 Larry Cottrill
FWEIII_chamber_finished_cut_end_crop1_small.jpg (111.28 KiB) Viewed 5473 times
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