Who can identify this 1960's European Three Wheeler?

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WebPilot
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Who can identify this 1960's European Three Wheeler?

Post by WebPilot » Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:55 pm

Who can identify this 1960's European Three Wheeler?

While watching again one of my favorite mid 60's tv series from across the pond, at the end of this particular episode, Emma and John went riding off into the sunset in one of these european three wheelers. What is it? Is it British, German (Messerschmidt) or other?

Image
front view
rear view

Later,

-fde
Last edited by WebPilot on Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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re: Who can identify this 1960's European Three Wheeler?

Post by RG Rhodes » Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:19 pm

Might be an Isotta.

RG

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Re: re: Who can identify this 1960's European Three Wheeler?

Post by Viv » Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:40 pm

[quote="RG Rhodes"]Might be an Isotta.

RG[/quote]

No the Isotta BMW was a two seater side by side this is a Messerschmitt


http://www.pcsystems.com/messerschmitt/mess.html

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re: Who can identify this 1960's European Three Wheeler?

Post by WebPilot » Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:51 am

Gee Viv,

That was quick. How'd you ID her so fast? Don't tell me you have one in your basement?

From the information you provided, my first guess it is a 1958 KR200 by FMR; it would be the convertible cabriolet version. There are no rear wheels so it cannot be a tiger. Open front fenders distinguish it from the 175. Nespa?

I fell in love with her at first sight. Why do I always like expensive, unobtainable things?

Hmmm. I have a 175 cc Kawasaki...

You don't have a cutaway drawing of her laying around, do you?

Later,

-fde
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Re: re: Who can identify this 1960's European Three Wheeler?

Post by Viv » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:08 am

[quote="WebPilot"]Gee Viv,

That was quick. How'd you ID her so fast? Don't tell me you have one in your basement?

From the information you provided, my first guess it is a 1958 KR200 by FMR; it would be the convertible cabriolet version. There are no rear wheels so it cannot be a tiger. Open front fenders distinguish it from the 175. Nespa?

I fell in love with her at first sight. Why do I always like expensive, unobtainable things?

Hmmm. I have a 175 cc Kawasaki...

You don't have a cutaway drawing of her laying around, do you?

Later,

-fde[/quote]

Ah easy:-) My brothers had a series of cheap cars back in the sixtys, Brian had a BMW bubble car with My brother John, also a Reliant three wheeler, A Messerscmidt figured as well.

Not so hard when you grow up with them around:-) and I watched that episode of the avengers first time round too:-)

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Re: re: Who can identify this 1960's European Three Wheeler?

Post by Viv » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:10 am

[quote="WebPilot"]Gee Viv,

That was quick. How'd you ID her so fast? Don't tell me you have one in your basement?

From the information you provided, my first guess it is a 1958 KR200 by FMR; it would be the convertible cabriolet version. There are no rear wheels so it cannot be a tiger. Open front fenders distinguish it from the 175. Nespa?

I fell in love with her at first sight. Why do I always like expensive, unobtainable things?

Hmmm. I have a 175 cc Kawasaki...

You don't have a cutaway drawing of her laying around, do you?

Later,

-fde[/quote]

Sorry mist the Kwaka referance, is it the D series disc valve induction twin two stroke?

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Re: re: Who can identify this 1960's European Three Wheeler?

Post by WebPilot » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:51 am

Viv wrote:
Ah easy:-) My brothers had a series of cheap cars back in the sixtys, Brian had a BMW bubble car with My brother John, also a Reliant three wheeler, A Messerscmidt figured as well.
Lucky You! Did you get to drive them?
Viv wrote:
Sorry mist the Kwaka referance, is it the D series disc valve induction twin two stroke?
I think it has an E in the engine case number, but I believe it to be a D series engine. The carburetor tucks inside the cases; indeed, it is a rotary valved, two stroke but it has only a single piston.

It looks like this:

Image

It seems it may be quite enough powerplant. If not I have a Yamaha DT250 and access to a 350 twin powered snowmobile - if need be.

I asked if you had a Messerschmitt's cutaway because I am now interested in the dimensions for a frame and what little bodywork that will have to be hammered or glassed.

With gas prices probably never coming back down, this idea from the 30's (1935 Morgan comes to mind)/ 40's/ 50's may have some life left in it here in the 21st century.

Even if it does not have broad appeal, I want one and my friends probably will, too, after they see mine.

Thanks,

-fde

PS I was waiting to see if someone would recognize these characters as being from "the Avengers" series. These A&E sets are beginning to show up in flea markets around here for some reason this time of year.
Image

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Re: re: Who can identify this 1960's European Three Wheeler?

Post by Viv » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:14 pm

[quote="WebPilot"][quote] Viv wrote:
Ah easy:-) My brothers had a series of cheap cars back in the sixtys, Brian had a BMW bubble car with My brother John, also a Reliant three wheeler, A Messerscmidt figured as well.
[quote="WebPilot"][quote]

[quote="WebPilot"][quote]Lucky You! Did you get to drive them?[quote]

No Big brothers were not going to let 6 year old little brother play with their toys:-)

[quote] Viv wrote:
Sorry mist the Kwaka referance, is it the D series disc valve induction twin two stroke?
[/quote]

I think it has an E in the engine case number, but I believe it to be a D series engine. The carburetor tucks inside the cases; indeed, it is a rotary valved, two stroke but it has only a single piston.

It looks like this:

[img]http://www.brads.net/forrestde/ForumPos ... wasaki.jpg[/img]

It seems it may be quite enough powerplant. If not I have a Yamaha DT250 and access to a 350 twin powered snowmobile - if need be.

I asked if you had a Messerschmitt's cutaway because I am now interested in the dimensions for a frame and what little bodywork that will have to be hammered or glassed.

With gas prices probably never coming back down, this idea from the 30's (1935 Morgan comes to mind)/ 40's/ 50's may have some life left in it here in the 21st century.

Even if it does not have broad appeal, I want one and my friends probably will, too, after they see mine.

Thanks,

-fde

PS I was waiting to see if someone would recognize these characters as being from "the Avengers" series. These A&E sets are beginning to show up in flea markets around here for some reason this time of year.[/quote]

Well the Avengers was a fave when I was young along with the Prisoner:-)

The Kwaka is a later engine developed from the D twins, every one used disk valve induction then as reeds had not been developed to a reliabule degree.

Probably a cutaway can be found on the net or via an owners club in the UK, there will be a few for sure, the Morgan and all the three wheelers with a single rear wheel have a bad reputation from when they get a rear punctre, the Morgans are known as death traps when this happens at high speed.

I know a few people with Morgans, nice cars and a lot of work to restore, you can get a home build kit car kit to convert a Citroen 2CV into a Morgan look alike.

Viv

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re: Who can identify this 1960's European Three Wheeler?

Post by Mark » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:45 pm

I use to watch the Avengers too, I remember it came on when I lived in Illinois, I had just moved there from Pakistan. We have several of the series at the library.
Speaking of the library, there is one episode where a guy comes into the library to murder someone. He sees a sign hanging that says "Silence" so he reaches into his vest and screws a silencer onto his gun. Funny show.
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re: Who can identify this 1960's European Three Wheeler?

Post by WebPilot » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:05 pm

Viv,

I am led to believe that a rotary valve is much more efficient than a reed, and that is why they were used in the "green machines".

I did find this pic on the 'net. It reminds me of an early Austin Healey Sprite (frogeye, bugeye, what have you) - both of these cars have unmistakeable faces.

Image

Thanks for informing me about instability at speed due to a rear tire failure. When I was younger and thought I was invincible, I rode Harley Davidson's for some 10-15 years. Crash and burn never entered my mind. Now, that I am older, I believe "who wants to live forever?"

Thanks again for your input on this matter.

I shall now have to find a 3 wheeler forum.

-fde
Last edited by WebPilot on Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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re: Who can identify this 1960's European Three Wheeler?

Post by Viv » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:27 pm

Just a bit more info, this is a nice link for the BMW Isetta

http://www.cqql.net/bmw.htm

My brothers had one of these but in a nice burgundy color as I remember, also it was I think the three wheel version but I would have to ask big brother to confirm that:-)

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re: Who can identify this 1960's European Three Wheeler?

Post by WebPilot » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:52 pm

Pics of my favorite, the Morgan 3 wheeler:

Image
Image
Image
Image

-fde
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re: Who can identify this 1960's European Three Wheeler?

Post by WebPilot » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:15 pm

Viv,

I always did enjoy interacting with you on the old forum (even though you were so secretive at times). You're one of the few that I miss by my not coming here much anymore.

Best wishes,

-fde
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Re: re: Who can identify this 1960's European Three Wheeler?

Post by Viv » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:16 pm

[quote="WebPilot"]Viv,

I always did enjoy interacting with you on the old forum (even though you were so secretive at times). You're one of the few that I miss by my not coming here much anymore.

Best wishes,

-fde[/quote]

:-) and I you;-) I don't get so much time to visit at the moment and frankly I have little desire to talk to some of the more recent members with their bolshy know it all attitudes.

I just pop in to keep in touch with friends.

Viv

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re: Who can identify this 1960's European Three Wheeler?

Post by mk » Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:46 pm

WebPilot wrote: [...] I think it has an E in the engine case number, but I believe it to be a D series engine. The carburetor tucks inside the cases; indeed, it is a rotary valved, two stroke but it has only a single piston.

It seems it may be quite enough powerplant. If not I have a Yamaha DT250 and access to a 350 twin powered snowmobile - if need be. [...]
As far as I know it mostly depends on the environment were the engine is used and the costs, wheter you'd like to choose a) piston porting, b) reed valves or c) rotary disc valves.

Usually the rotary discs are better for relatively equal RPM numbers at operation, allowing for a more peak shaped usable RPM band. Rotary discs aren't much better for unoptimized RPM numbers than the piston porting only, due to inlet resonance effects. So they are/were mostly used for engines running on higher RPM numbers and, due to the same factum, more "powerful" engines of the same volume. Suitable vehicles are gokarts and road-racetrack motorcycles and thereof a suitable environment is a road-racetrack in general.

Reed valves are more or less self-adapting within limits and don't need any further drive, thus they are rather used for environments needing an engine that features a rather wide usable RPM range. Suitable environments are MX-racetracks, enduro tracks and, of course, normal streets.

So IMHO, you cannot simply say one is better than the other one. When relying on reeds, you pay the bill by achieving a lower max. perfomance and having a limited upper RPM number. When relying on rotary discs you're going to pay the bill by having a less wide usable RPM band. A geared rotary valve would be cool, though.
But of course the pumping efficiency is increased by the usage of rotary discs of unsymmetric porting diagrams, when compared to symmetric porting diagrams of piston ported engines.
mk

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